There is no issue in the Muslim community that is more serious and more of a problem to the short and long term success of the community than that of marriage. Family is the foundation of the Muslim community and a marriage is the foundation of the family and if our marriages are failing, and our divorce rates are soaring to a point that if a brother has been married less than 5 times he is considered pious, then we have a problem.I have chastised and been critical in the past of the failure of the Muslim community to address the problem of marriage in a serious way and be real. It angered me when I attended conferences where all they talked about was Palestine when our families and homes were in a state of crisis right here in America. The problem had been known to all but ignored on the organizational and national level, perhaps because it may have been seen as too hard to deal with, or perhaps because addressing it in a real way would mean airing dirty laundry and calling some of those pimps posing as imams that have been married more times than Dick Cheney has tried to hype the threat of Iran and Saddam.
Therefore, it was extremely gratifying to me and others I spoke with, to see the issue of marriage and all of the problems that come along with that in the Muslim community in America, being addressed in a very frank manner and the sisters brought it all out and the brothers responded in a cordial and constructive way.
One of the issues that was brought up most often in this discussion that was hosted by Sheikh Anwar Muhaimin and two sisters I did not get the names of was the issue of domestic violence (with many sisters adding in verbal and emotional abuse to that equation) and what is the appropriate response of the community to this issue and how do we develop a plan of action on this matter.
Sisters told of either being abused themselves, or of friends and relatives being abused, and the local imam or masjid doing nothing to help them and often taking the side of the brother. Others told the story of masajid playing a very active role in the defense of the sisters and having a set protocol, often physically intervening in such situations, and examining the pluses and minuses of this approach. In this regard it was one brother who I think made the best point when he said “we need to get rid of this street mentality once we are in the deen of not snitching and going to the police…if a sister is being abused she should call the police…if she calls the masjid and the brothers come over to handle the situation that brother may call the police on them and make the situation worse.”
The unfortunate reality is brothers go upside the ends of their wives and otherwise abuse them and then put them on a guilt-trip about calling the police because she is seeking the “protection of the kufar” while at the same time when that sister goes to the masjid she may get ignored. I think masajid need to have a simple policy in this matter; offer counseling to families in trouble, have committees set up to deal with this issue, but if the brother is abusive encourage the sister to call the police first and the masjid second.
Another issue that was important to the sisters was that of dowry. A lot of my international readers or even American-Muslims not familiar with certain aspects of the Muslim community may not know how the issue of dowry has been handled by a lot of Muslim converts in America. Traditionally the dowry has been treated as a joke and brothers have given sisters either a little petty cash, and I am talking about maybe twenty bucks, or have promised to either teach them a sura, a hadith, or to take them to hajj (and of course often times they would either divorce them before they had to take them or get a free hajj from the Saudi Embassy or another charitable organization).
At some point in the last ten years American-Muslim sisters, especially African-Americans, have become a lot more serious about the issue of dowry and have began demanding significant amounts. What prompted this? I am not sure but I have a couple of theories; the first one is that as the African-American community became more exposed to sisters from overseas and some sisters even made hijrah with their husbands they began finding out how much some sisters from other countries were getting and they wanted in on the action. Secondly, they found out that the same brother who gave them a twenty dollar and a Big Mac dowry and left her with a couple of kids went over to Morocco and spent several thousand dollars on marrying a Moroccan girl.
Brothers have personally told me that they would go over to Morocco and spend a lot of money on getting married (flying back and forth a couple of times, flying the sister back, the visa application process, paying the necessary bribes in Morocco to get the marriage license, paying the actual dowry, paying for the wedding, paying for the wedding celebration, giving the family money, etc.) ; but would not give a black woman in America a significant dowry because in their minds black women weren’t worth that much. They would say you can always marry a black woman who will only want you to teach her a sura because she may be hard-up and needing to get married ASAP.
The sisters at MANA were not hearing any of that and not only were they chastising the brothers but they were getting on the sisters and encouraging them to stop playing the role of the dummy and to demand a significant dowry up front. This was the one actual point in the session when the brothers did not seem so enthusiastic and as sisters started talking about demanding higher and higher dowries I saw a lot of brothers frowning for obvious reasons.
There were other serious issues brought up that need to be looked at further such as each local community maintaining a data base of single Muslims, the fact that many Muslim women do not see themselves as sisters in Islam but rather as competitors for men, the idea that an Islamic Bureau of Investigation should be created to do full background checks on Muslims before they are married after sisters told of horror stories, and an older sister from New York said we need to look at polygamy in a more serious manner.
The moment that brought the loudest applause though came towards the end when a brother from the Washington, DC area came to the microphone and simply stated ” brothers, going to Morocco is not the solution” and at those words the sisters erupted in cheers and laugher and many of the brothers chimed in ( although more in laughter).
I have talked about this in the past that there is a new tribe being created in America of children coming from the marriages of African-American men married to Moroccan women. In every city you go to with any amount of African-American Muslims you will find several brothers married to Moroccan women. It usually starts with one brother going over to Morocco to get married and then his wife helping him hook his Muslim brothers up with her sisters, other family members, and friends back home.
From the brothers stand point they are looking to marry a “real” Muslim sister form a Muslim country who speaks Arabic and Morocco is one of the few places in the Muslim World where an outsider and a black man can easily get married. Most of these brothers had been married to black women in the past, many were married to African-American women when they went over to Morocco, and thus either got a divorce or lived in polygamy. The Moroccan women enter these situations because they are desperate and in poverty and want to come to America for a better life and for all practical purposes are nothing more than halal mail-order brides.
The people who lose out most in this equation, besides from the children that these brothers often leave when they go and fetch a “real” Muslim wife from a Moroccan village, are the African-American sisters who are striving to be upon this deen but are made to feel they are not “real” Muslim women. They also look at the fact that while they may be doing without, and having to raise their children on their own, the brother is giving his Moroccan wife what he never gave her sending the message that he does not value her or black women.
This climate has created a lot of bitterness and animosity aimed at the Moroccan sisters from the African-American sisters ( and I know of at least two occasions when African-American women dished out serious beat-downs to Moroccan women and another when a sister blew her husbands brains out when she found out about his Moroccan wife). The sister may be doing her best to be a good Muslim wife but she always has the threat of her 50 year old husband going over to marry a 23 year old Moroccan stunna ( who would smack him for even looking at her if she grew-up in America).
So, for the African-American sisters, the issue of the Moroccan marriages is definitely damaging, but what about the brothers? I have about twenty African-American Muslim friends of mine that I know who are married to Moroccan women, and I can only say that two of them are happy, most are miserable in their marriages, and one brother is even suicidal his marriage is so bad. Far from a perfect Muslim wife who is a walking replica of the Mothers of the Believers these brothers more often than not get petty, jealous, money hungry, gold-digging women who drive them nuts. They have nothing in common with these women and the cultural gap is just too big for most to overcome. One brother married to a Moroccan woman told me” I wish my wife would just die, I am not going to kill her or do her any harm, but it would be good if she would die.”
That is when you know you have a problem brothers and sisters and maybe at the next MANA Convention a special session will be needed just to address that issue…but maybe you might need a little security because some of these sisters may get overheated.
I’m not from the US but have relatives there. My cousins are afraid to get married because of the high rates of divorce they say.
Is it really becoming that difficult to find a compatible spouse?
Also, when we’re talking divorce, do the sisters actually ask for khula or are they filing for divorce in the secular courts?
Interesting…so it appears the African American sisters are not missing out on anything. It says alot about a black man that views his black women (Muslim or not) as worthless.
Why are black muslimahs having issues with marriage, specifically dowry and a decent home, when the same isn’t reflected in the Black Christian community? As black Christians (those who were Christian before Islam), we didnt’ accept a “hope ring,” (very small engagement ring) so why are we accepting $20 as mahr? We had the standard wedding and reception, so why are we forgoing our wedding party? He had to move us into a new home, so why are we accepting him moving in with us? What happened, or is this just an inner city issue? What are European American sisters getting for dowries? What are European American sisters from Rural America (remember you will find the same exact issues affect inner cities in rural america) getting?
Why are black Christian marriages flourishing and not black Muslim marriages? I’m confused. Remember just because a person isn’t Muslim, doesn’t mean (s)he is Christian.
The husband is supposed to teach you Quran and hadith, that’s not a dowry.
Regarding divorce, sisters are you aware it’s standard (FOR SOME) to be paid at least $5,000 in the event of divorce…. this is cheap and no different than us getting alimony after divorce in the US.
The real reason black women are being shortchanged in marriage is we have no one protecting our rights as muslimahs. When is the ummah going to address this issue? Is there a wali training program? Ladies – keep the nonmuslim men in your family HEAVILY involved in your life, especially when it comes to meeting a prospective husband. When I made the mistake of excluding them because I thought it was correct islamically is when the abuse started.
Islam blog, in my experience, it depends. In some communities in the US, it is actually frowned upon/not commonly practiced for the couple to have a legal, secular marriage license in addition to any nikah that has taken place. In those situations, sisters are not filing for divorce in secular court because there is no legal marriage on file in the first place. Honestly I find that these tend to be the communities with the highest divorce rate, and the highest rates of post-marital shenanigans, i.e. skipping out on child support and what not. There is no legal way to enforce anything if it doesn’t exist, and unfortunately many of the people involved in this situation simply don’t have the taqwa to understand that they are still bound by a sacred contract that they made before Allah.
Salaam ‘Alaikum
Regarding the dowry issue, it is a problem for American sisters from non-Muslim backgrounds across the board. Jeffrey Lang has written about Muslim brothers approaching him for help finding a convert wife b/c they can get by with a cheap dowry. I know many sisters — of all races — who got dowries of “a dress” or “some jilbabs” or “a set of Bukhari.” This is from men from overseas as well as American born brothers. I wrote about this issue at least 10 years ago, when many of us were still being put under intense pressure not to demand more than these types of tokens, b/c that wouldn’t be “pious.” Never mind that the mahr is there to assist her should he die or divorce her. Never mind that there is no limit on it … The attitude, I guess, is that we should just be so grateful a man is coming along to marry us, and if we were “real” Muslims, we’d be happy with $25 and a jilbab.
The family is the issue of our future — for Muslims of all backgrounds. If we can’t raise our children in peaceful Muslim homes, then they’re going to say, “Islam didn’t do anything for my parents, it didn’t make them better people, when they were cursing each other and fighting and making us all miserable growing up.”
A few things here. If you cannot afford a decent dowry, then you probably cannot afford to support a family and should not be getting married in the first place.
On the other side of this, we dont want to see things going like they do in some places in the Middle East where dowries are so high that men and women do not get married and it leads to some pretty bad behavior, or if nothing else, a rush to find cheaper brides no matter where that might be.
And a side note, if the brothers here in the USA are looking for Morrocans because they speak Arabic, I cannot think of a more stupid reason. The Arabic that is spoken in Morroco is almost unintelligible to the rest of the Arabic speaking world and would be little or nothing of help in the way of conversational Arabic and especially Qur’anic Arabic.
You’d be much better off marrying an Egyptian (if you can ignore the annoying eGyptian accent) or a Sudanese, Lebanese or other Arab sister, if language is your real intent. But, once again, their families wont let them go for whispers of a dowry, and probably not to someone with zero education.
When my wife and I had our katb al-kitab/nikah done, the imam who officiated our marriage insisted that it be registered with the secular courts (even though our actual wedding wasn’t going to take place until the following year) for this very reason. I think this is a good policy; if a woman marries a man, she should have some recourse to enforce her legal rights in case there is a problem.
Along the same lines, I think there’s a strong argument in favor of the position that it’s haram for Muslim men in America to marry multiple wives, since only one of them is legal and the others have no recourse to protect their rights in case there is a problem.
With respect to the mahr, I think the best policy is for a sister to request an amount that is in accordance with the brother’s means. If the brother is barely making ends meet, then perhaps a set of Bukhari or some jilbabs is not an inappropriate mahr (whether the sister should want to marry a brother who is barely making ends meet is another question). If, on the other hand, the brother owns his own business or is some kind of a professional, then by all means, the sister should insist upon a healthy mahr. In this vein, perhaps investigating the brothers’ finances (using ethical, non-intrusive means, of course) as part of the background check is not a bad idea.
As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,
As a Muslim convert (white) male, I’ve noticed in some Muslim immigrant communities here that we are regarded as of rather less worth than one of their own sons. A few years ago I had contacts in the Somali community in SE London and there was talk of them finding me a wife from amongst them. The sister I had been talking to ended up suggesting to me that I find myself a fellow “mzungu” (she was a Kenyan Somali, for anyone wondering) to marry. Never mind the fact that I wanted a sister who was more grounded in the deen than myself. I’ve also been flatly refused on three occasions by sisters who told me that their parents wouldn’t entertain someone from outside their culture, and a common excuse is that they fear a clash of cultures (note that we didn’t get to the point of sitting down and discussing what clashes there might be). So it’s not just sisters who are regarded as cheap; I suspect that some of them regard us as damaged goods, people who probably slept around before converting (not true, in my case).
umm pookie,
I absolutely agree with your last statement about the missing sense of accountability before Allah. In fact, focusing on that one single aspect could solve so many problems.
As salamu ‘alaikum,
On the point of multi-cultural marriages:
For the African American male marrying into a multi-cultural marriage [on the surface] looks promising because of two main factors which represent the crux of what is sought of a man in his relationship with his wife. Namely, respect and gratitude. This is one of the main rights of the husband over his wife. In the Af-Am community the issues of slavery and cultural baggage are not addressed. One of the things I see is a deep-deep sense of mistrust between Af-am men and women. This plays out in our marriages. As far as I’m concerned where there is no trust – there is no foundation to the marriage.
With the Af-am male and female because the male [almost intrinsicly] can’t be trusted then there is no basis for respect and gratitude. Rather an atmosphere of ‘raising him’ or ‘molding him’ into whatever the women deems is a suitable mate comes into the picture. So the African American women sees herself as playing ‘momma’ in a marriage relationship. Or because the male can’t be trusted then she has to always prepare and ‘out’ for herself and her children. In this way, she seeks to be independent. This can be seen as competition, but more than that, it creates an extreme element of disarray in the home. Because she always has to have an ‘out’ there is an underlying split of leadership in the household.
I’m not saying that this mistrust doesn’t playout in both directions but since alot of attention was shed on the male aspect on the situation. I’m touching on that.
Ultimately, the multi-cultural marriage, for the Af-am male holds the prospect of gratitude and respect. For him that represents trust, peace and calm a.k.a “success”.
Alot of times sisters are on the offensive so much about their rights because of horror stories and things they’ve seen that it fosters the already present pretense of mistrust. There needs to be much HONEST dialogue and discussion around the cultural baggage in our community. If we don’t understand the effect of the baggage in the psychology of our marriages then we can’t counteract them. This is only issue of many. But see the trust factor as a major pivotal issue.
On the value of African American women:
On one end I can see an element of this but on the other I think that beyond the surface it’s not about the value that African American man see in the women herself. Rather it’s about the opportunity and prospect of success that he sees in marrying her. If were to look at the dowery as a representation of the success factor of the marriage then we can see that brothers don’t view themselves as being able to have success in marriages with African American sisters.
There is also an element of immaturity in this regard as well. To Bint Will’s comments about dowery, it’s just a further implication of the lack of understanding and maturity we have in our community with regards to culture and identity. Af-am’s have created a sub-culture of African American Islam. Some of it good and some bad. In our community we see this adoption of the poor-man spirit of Islam as Tariq Nelson’s mentions in some of his posts. Also, the idea of instantly changing names, adopting certain types of clothing, etc, etc. So we isolate ourselves into this very narrow definition of what we perceive as being Islam. I think this plays out in the stranger-marriage syndrome and that piety-means-poverty approach to marriage and life in general.
On a larger scale there is also the issue of the womans representative. Personally, I think this is at the heart of the issue. Many sisters don’t take seriously having proper representation. Or settle with poor representation. I think alot of issue can be settled with ensuring that sisters have proper representation. This is where the idea community comes into the picture. Unfortunately, the idea of community is eschewed in many regards. Having the assistance of elders and counselors in helping brothers and sisters planning marriage might help circumvent some of these problems. They can also help bring out real-world issues and concerns that young people don’t take into consideration when they set out to marry.
So, while Morroco might not be the solution. It represents an opportunity for success in the mind of the African American male. I have to admit that looking at the marriage issues in our community I have thought to myself and discussed with other brothers that multi-cultural marriage might be a solution to help build strong families. Alhamdullilah, Umar brings good points to the table about some of the realities of these types of marriages. That’s the nature of this life though. It’s not all good and it’s not all bad.
May Allah (swt) make it easy for us and help us in improving our marriages, families and communities. We have alot of work to do.
I got really, really, really depressed reading this because this really is a problem with no solution, and at the heart of it you find poverty, inferiority complexes, and plain old ghetto nigga culture at its worst. I first wrote about three pages worth just now, but realized some problems just don’t have solutions that don’t involve other problems themselves.
There are plenty of sloutions to this but they all involve another problem somewhere to replace this one, then MANA would just be having a conference on whatever other problem instead of “Black Muslims can’t be with each other”. It’s too complicated to solve without money we just don’t have unless we give it back in exchange for another fitnah. I don’t know about other countries but I know Islam in America is not gonna survive; it’s already dying and becoming something else. Too many Muslims are dysfunctional no matter where they come from, and we’re all too overwhelmed with earning a living and paying bills to sort out some s— like this. That’s part of why this is so depressing. And from what some of yall say the Muslim countries are just as bad or worse, so we got no where to go and no way to repair. Our backs are against the wall and we’re cornered which is why we’re running cons on each other in the first place!
Even non-Muslims have their crosses to bear and they’re still gonna burn in hell. We said la ilaha il Allah so we wouldn’t have to go there, so we’re just gonna have more problems in this life in the meantime. So pick our poison, because Allah is not gonna let us solve all our problems in this life and still go to heaven! The only question is which fitnah are we gonna get and is it gonna be worth suffering on the last day?
The session was very interesting and I have to admit the comment about Morocco not being the “solution” had me cracking up. I think we all have stories about the Black man – Morocco link. What I can’t wait for is the IBI – Islamic Bureau of Investigations…
Bint Will: someone did bring up the whole issue of the lack of proper walis for women. They also spoke of creating a wali training program to rectify the situation. Many women get caught in some ugly situations because they have no one looking out for them, it’s as simple as that.
By the way the two sisters who were there with Iman Anwar were Aneesah Nadir from the Islamic Social Serices Association (issausa.org) and Zarinah Al-Amin Naeem who is the founder of http://www.niyah.net. These two sisters are dynamos !
Exactly how pervasive are these problems in the American Muslim community? I’m not talking about anecdotal evidence as described above, I’m specifically talking about numbers.
I bet you I won’t get an answer.
Asalaamu alaikum.
Wow, I’ve written about this issue too. :) Seems we are all on the same page, but so spread out, LOL. Around here it is literally a $5 dowry for many American sisters, regardless of race. Another common one, instead of actually buying her a jilbab, they will spring for three or four yards of $2 fabric from Wal-Mart so she can make an overgarment and or khimar herself (even if she has never sewn before). There is no way for a sister to ask for a khula divorce, either her husband divorces her (often with a generous amount of verbal abuse and public maligning of her character) or abandons her when he marries another sister. For a sister to beg for divorce, well, it is just not allowed here. I too have known sisters in seriously abusive situations – I mean husbands who were bringing drugs and prostitutes into the house even – and the masjid does nothing but tells her to pray for him and be patient and not to dare run to the kufr for help.
I definitely second keeping your non-Muslim male family (and your mama’s too!) involved. They may not understand what you are looking for Islamically, but they do know you and what you are about. They recognize shady when they see it, and they will be there for you in the event you are being mistreated. You can help them to understand what is genuinely Islamic that they may just misunderstand, but still they know when something is just wrong. Although my brother is my official wali, every man I’ve ever considered marrying has been expected to also asked my non-Muslim father’s permission out of respect. Any man who says that is not Islamic is not going to get very far with me.
This article has certainly brought up some really important and interesting issues. Alot of food for thought here.
I am based in London and someone that I know runs an islamic matrimonials agency here. He told me that he has alot of problems trying to find partners for black sisters. He said most of the black brothers wanted to marry white or asian sisters as their first choice. They don’t want to marry black sisters at all. I feel that this is symptomatic of racism within the black community itself. African-Caribbean brothers particularly don’t want to marry dark coloured sisters or sisters with typical negroid features. The black sisters that do manage to find partners are those that are light coloured or have western/ European looking features.
Alot of Shuyukh are reporting black brothers requesting recommendations for marriage and specifically for white/ asian sisters. One such prominent Shaykh was approached in such a way by a black brother and he replied, what’s wrong with your own? If you don’t marry your own who will? And this really sums it up, if black brothers don’t marry their own then who will? The most open of all the men to marrying black sisters were white converts incidentally.
This racism within the black community itself might go some way to explain why the dowry offered to blackwomen might be lower then the highly sought after white/ asian women – in this case Morrocan women. It also might explain why some black sisters are finding it very difficult to find partners and are lowering their demands. Another issue that is affecting us on our side of the atlantic is asian brothers going back home (Indian subcontinent) to find wives. And the general reasons being that they want a submissive wife who will not demand her rights, will not speak of her abuse (otherwise she’ll be threatened with being sent back home) and will gladly run and manage an extended family household single handedly without complaint.
Also, I don’t believe that polygamy will resolve an issue, where the heart of which is prejudism, racism and inequality. Those issues need to be dealt with first, and if you are able to do that succesfully then you might find that there is no need for polygamy at all. And for those that think polygamy is the golden answer, then think again because some of the abuses that occur in polygamous marriages (as far as I have seen) are unthinkable and not to mention far greater than those that occur in monogamous marriages. Sisters will end up learning the hard way. It might be the answer to some things but not everything.
I agree totally with the sentiments expressed in this article on the failure of the muslim community to address the issues of marriage on both sides of the atlantic.
I would like to see a few more posts go up on islamic blogs worldwide discussing this issues as it certainly warrants more time and discussion.
Yusuf’s comments were interesting and I know where he is coming from. Many “born” Muslim sisters certainly would consider marrying a convert, but their families would be against it.
When I did my blog I got numerous e-mails from Arab women seeking to marry non Arabs and converts. They often wanted advice on how to get their families to accept such a marriage. That is something I couldnt help them with as my wife’s family had no issue with race, their only interests were my grounding in the deen and my ability to support a family.
If such families would get a bit closer to the deen and drop the cultural/racial nonsense a lot more of these sisters would marry converts. Our only issue is with getting the Saudi government to recognise our marriage. It might surprise people but in the Land of the Two Holy Shrines, The Qur’an and Hadith is not enough, their own local rules and guidlines trump Allah and the Prophet in that they require permission for their citizens to marry a non citizen, even though under the laws of God a marriage between Muslims with the family’s acceptance is halal.
This is an issue almost all converts will have if they marry a foreign born wife. The governments from almost all Middle Eastern countries erect barriers to such marriages, and this is particularly true in the Gulf. Not only in granting official recognition of the marriage, but any children from these marriages will be denied citizenship and it’s attendent rights in the mother’s country as only a man has the right to pass on citizenship to children, another practice not grounded in Islamic law or teachings.
As to comments about not having enough money for a “proper” dowry, I would have to say that here in the USA if you do not have enough money to supply a proper dowry then you are not going to be able to support a wife and any children which come from the marriage.
If you can only buy a hijab or a prayer rug for the future wife, how are you going to pay for additional food and other expense that come with having to support a wife? Are you going to be able to pay for her medical care? Are you going to be able to support children if and when they come?
You must all remember that a wife is not required to work, so the man MUST be in the position to support his wife as she stays at home, which is her right. If the man cannot afford to provide for his wife on his own he must make that clear BEFORE they get married.
I know of one couple, an African American married to a Pakistani lady, with whom this has been an issue. After they got married he demanded that she work even though this had not been a part of what they agreed to before the marriage, and it is a demand that is not lawful in Islam.
Keep in mind that if a woman works, any money she makes is not required to be put into the house or any of the expenses. Those are the expenses and bills of the husband and it is not a requirement that the wife put a penny into the household, even though she can do so as a charity to her husband. The money a wife makes, unless she chooses otherwise, is HER money and the man cannot dispose of it on his own.
All of this can and should be spelled out up front. If the man is going to require his wife to work it must be agreed to before the marriage. Under Islam the assumption is that the woman will stay home, and if she chooses not to, monies earned remain hers.
People must be also careful about what clauses they put into the marriage contract concerning divorce. Excessive amounts/support to be paid to the wife upon the divorce is just a guarantee that the husband will not be able to pay her and hence will not give her the divorce leaving her in limbo for years.
Hmmmm, you think Kuwait can be the solution for me? haha!! I might get a better deal on some dowry.
West African… Your ignorance speaks volumes…as usual. Anyway all nonblacks aren’t Christians. Black christian marriages are flourishing. I was married when I was a black Christian, my sister is married, my parents are married, my grandparents were married. Many poor (black or white) do not marry because they will lose their benefits. If you venture down south you’ll find it is the norm for folks to marry young and highly frowned upon for children to be born out of wedlock – get out of the ghetto and slums african numb nuts and visit america.
Then again, why am I wasting time and keystrokes on your digusting behind….
I’m surprised these Moroccans families let there daughters marry African Americans so easily. I would think that they would be racist like typical Arab-Desi parents, but apparently they are open-minded and accepting the African American brothers. MashaAllah!
Maybe African American sisters need to go to Morocco and find themselves some Moroccan husbands?
May Allah (swt) make the situation for the Muslim American community easier. Ameen!
some stats to work with (mistakes are mine):
42% of African-American adults are married, compared to 61% of whites and 59% of Hispanics (2003).
12% divorce rate for African-American couples, compared to 10% for whites and 7% for Hispanics (2003).
68% of AA births are to unmarried women, compared to 29% for whites and 44% for Hispanics (2003).
62% of AA households are headed by a single parent, compared to 27% for whites and 35% for Hispanics (2003).
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/healthymarriage/pdf/aahmi.pdf
Seeing as how the majority of African-American are Christian, apparently they ain’t doing something right.
I seriously doubt that any type of serious study has been done on the African-American Muslim populace.
MR said, “I’m surprised these Moroccans families let there daughters marry African Americans so easily.”
Actually I’m not. Morroco is a very impoverished country. It’s assumed that everyone in America is wealthy. I know several families in Morocco, the men cannot afford marriage and many are often unemployed as work is scarce.
Carlito, America is considered a “Christian” country… People here say they are Christian, as those in the Middle East say they are Muslim, when in fact they aren’t. AGain, step OUT SIDE OF THE INNER CITY and you will find successful generations of black Christian marriages, business, etc…
Travel throughout rural america, and you’ll find numerous examples of poor whites, criminal whites, whites having children out of wedlock, substandard education – same issues affecting inner cities. Most of these issues have more to do with poverty, not race. Poor whites do not marry because they will lose whatever government benefits they are receiving, so it’s better for them to shake up than marry.
Southern America has a different set of values than northern America. In the north, where most inner cities are it’s acceptable to have children out of wedlock, in the south it isn’t. It’s still very shameful. The south is very family oriented and have “old fashioned” values.
Well the black Christians in my circle are doing a lot right, guess I need to spend more time in the city. I keep reading the stats, but when i look within my family and circle of friends, as well as former coworkers i didn’t see the baby mamas, brotehrs from jail living off a woman. I wasn’t exposed to this filth until I became Muslim, and this speaks volumes.
Since we don’t like the example of black Christians, let’s look at teh example of the Nation of Islam, which has a huge presence in the inner cities… what are tehy doing that Orthodox Muslims aren’t doing?
MR i think you just missed point of this discussion, seems like your after a morrocan chick urself. Do yourself a favour and re-read the entire thread.
Bint Will:
Where do you get this notion that African American non-muslims are having great marriages? African American women have the lowest rate of marriage and highest rate of out of wedlock births in the United States. Marriage in the African American community has become almost obsolete. And these are non-muslims. Check the National Urban Leagues’ annual State of Black America paper, it fully lists these statistics.
In regards to Morocco, I know many brothers who are happily married to Moroccan sisters. Most brothers I know who have married sisters from there have told me that it was the best decision they made. I actually know an African American woman who went to find a brother from Morocco to marry. She also seems to be quite happy.
Marriage is a personal decision and whatever personal preferences brothers or sisters may have is truly there discretionary right. It is not Haraam for brothers or sisters to have preferences for certain physical types, cultures, or ethnicities. If an African American brother only wants a Moroccan, or a white, or an Asian that is his prerogative. Does this make a statement about internalized self hatred coming from a post-colonial inferiority complex—very possible, but in the end it is not Haraam and is totally his choice.
The African American community suffers from dysfunctionality caused by some of the most oppressive conditions in the history of mankind. These realities are unfortunately evidenced in the most important structure of a healthy society, which is the family. There is a need for serious cultural and psychological healing on a massive level for African Americans to be able to rectify these most damaging social realities. I think it is safe to say that the problem is beyond the ability of the current Muslim infrastructure in America to handle. The problem requires massive social services resources that the American Ummah does not seem to want to bring forward to address these issues. Many of these issues are those of class as well. There has been little effort to do Dawah among the more stable educated African American middle class. This further compounds the problem since the African American Muslims converts often have less human capital to contribute to building their communities. However, great work has been done with even limited resources. Allahu Alim, what the future holds.
Farzana (my namesake) has raised some very valid points, especially in regards to racism. I have also met brothers who had the treatment meted out that Brother Yusuf has had. I recently met a newly converted English sister that said she wanted to get married but was very wary of speaking with Muslim guys (mostly south Asian around here) because she felt that they saw white women as good for only one thing.
Here we have the opposite problem to an extent because the first generation are still trying to ship their kids back home (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) whether they like it or not (more often) to get their relatives over or to find a submissive/less westernised partner for their child.
When it comes to dowries, Muslims from these countries have traditionally lived with Hindu’s and taken on many of their customs. So for us dowry is what the girls side have to stump up (alongside the cost of the entire wedding). I married in Pakistan, so although my in-laws didn’t ask for a dowry, my parents felt under pressure to prepare a trousseau and provide furniture for my room in my in-laws house (where I have spent a total of two months). Thankfully Asians in this country are beginning to drop this tradition especially the whole bit about sending their daughters dripping in gold (that they have been saving for since she was born).
When I told my mum-in-law about how in Islam the man pays the dowry to the woman, she was scandalised. As good and religious a woman as she is, because of her culture, she still saw it as buying a bride.
I recently overheard a young Brit-Pakistani guy complaining about how he should have gone home to get a wife because girls here expected too much – at first it made my blood boil, I am British-born and I know how hard I try to please my hubby, my in-laws and my parents as well as my God, and as such I do expect something back. But then it occurred to me that such young men don’t want strong companions but women that don’t make them feel like the mummy’s-boys that they are. They are not man enough for an opinionated, powerful Muslim women who knows her rights. What they don’t know is that the girls from back home are tough as nails and will eat them for breakfast. (as one of my hubby’s friends said about his wife – “I can’t afford her and the rent, she wants £100 a week just for spending money – I was better off getting a dirty movie” – oh dear).
It’s so funny to me when Umar writes something that sounds like it was written by an angry black woman.
As-salamu Alaykum,
My point of view may not be popular here, but I am in full support of a simple mahr. If you have been to the Middle East, you will see that the demand for mahr has ruined people’s chances of getting married while they are still young. The Prophet (PBUH) told us that the best of women is the one who is simple with her mahr. When I got married to my husband, I did not ask him for more that a token amount, and I have not regretted that decision. I do not believe the mahr is for the purpose of supporting the woman – it is just a gift to show that this is a married relationship and not zina. When you get married to your husband, you are getting married to the man himself, not what he can give you in terms of mahr. It is a shame how many marriages can’t go through because the man can’t afford a specific kind of furniture or all the clothes and gold the woman desires. There are numerous examples in the Sunnah of simple mahrs (an iron ring, a verse of the Qur’an, a man’s conversion to Islam, etc.) On the other hand, it is shocking to hear that people who think women asking for simple mahrs are dumb or not worth more. This is a very sad commentary on our materialistic way of life and outlook on marriage. In the end, though, a higher mahr is not going to make a better marriage. It is all about the two people and their intention.
I got to say I actually love that a woman can have opinions.
But a man or a woman who won’t shut up and is always interrupting to give their two cents is annoying! My wife and I are careful to not do this to each other and it really helps to work out differences. Now, when she gets to interrupting and goes off on a lecture, she ends up talking to a wall. What does this have to do with color and Morrocco and all that? Absolutely nothing! That’s the whole point! Our blessings and our hardships in the marriage come no matter the color, it’s the upbringing that counts.
West African, everything you said is true….. about brothers and sisters the same.
Madeline and Abu Sinan hit the nails on the head. Simple dowries are a help on one hand and on the other a man is by default the one to earn and support the household. But in this country, very few men can support a family on one income. Muslim or not. And I believe that a Muslim man is going to tested with limited finances more than disbelievers… generally.
I agree with Madeline( of course, as a brother, I have a vested interest in doing so). Fatima (ra) got some simple household items for her dowry.
Umar, I think you and many others would be extremely interested in this:
The Muslim Youth Helpline
http://www.ajyal.ca/cms/index.php?section=5
“We’re the 1st toll-free, anonymous phone counselling, for Muslim youth in North America. Every day, Our Imams and professional counsellors provide immediate, caring support to young people in urban and rural communities across CANADA & the US.”
I personally know two of the counsellors: my dad, and my mom’s best friend.
Maybe you’d like to do a post on this, Umar?
Ahaha West African Philly,
I suppose you assume that only Moroccans will marry brown girls. A blonde wig might help. Somebody heard about me and asked in interest if I looked like Beyonce. haha.
I’ve had people from here enquire. And you haven’t seen the numbers of Black Kuwaitis. Kuwaitis aren’t limiting their selection to the blonde expats. They marry their Ethiopian and Filipino maids too. I’ve seen lots of Brown children running around. Plus, there’s all the foreign workers from the Arab world and East Africa making 60% of the population grown men whose chances of finding women here to marry are a lot slimmer than mine back home. Not to say that I will. But sisters got options too.
As salaamu alaykum,
Sheesh, I started writing and just kept on writing. Anyway I think we can find a balance between a 300,000 dowry with an SUV and fully furnished house, and a trip to MacD’s for some haraamburgers.
There are hadith about the value of asking for less mahr, but fo’ real even the Prophet (saaws) demanded something significant for his daughter. Imam Ali (as) had to sell his shield to pay Fatima’s (as) dowry. This was a man who had to fight in wars, a poor man from a poor family, selling his shield was a big deal. Imagine a brother willing to sell his car and catch the bus so he can give a decent dowry. That shows he values you. It’s not in the dollar amount.
I’m not touching this issue with black men with a ten foot pole. I will say, though, that Essence magazine did a big article a while back about wealthy black men (presumably not muslim) going to Brazil to find women. I guess that’s the non Muslim Morrocco. The problems in the Af. American community cut across religion, income level, education level.
I will say, as a black woman, that when we start valuing ourselves other men will value us. I never had a “just go out the pen” bro. approach me. They knew enough to not even go there. Of the few Af,. American men interested in me for marriage they were all well educated. I never had the “I just got here and need a green card” immigrants either (okay well one, but he got schooled quick, fast and in a hurry). If you carry yourself a certain way and make it clear that you are having no less than a certain kind of treatment, then people will think you must have something worthwhile. I didn’t get approached nearly as much as my (often) less attractive white friends, but most of the time they were being approached as a get into America free card. I didn’t have the quantity for sure, but my options were generally of some quality. And I’m very dark skinned. It’s not about beauty, there are plenty of homely looking white women, jordanians, mexicans, indians etc. getting married. Value yourself and others will value you. You maybe called picky or stuck up, but that’s okay.
I think while it’s wonderful to point out that Fatima, Allah be pleased with her, got a simple mahr, it’s also important to remember who she married, and the times that she was living in. Show me a man like Sayyiduna Ali asking for the hand of my daughter and then we can talk–and a community that is not going to let a woman and her children starve after they have been abandoned by a man who promised to take care of her.
It’s also important to point out that many sisters end up sacrificing their education and careers to raise a family. It’s a wonderful thing, because someone needs to do it. But the modern workplace being what it is, it puts mothers who decide to be homemakers at risk for poverty. If you don’t have at least a bachelor’s degree–and/or if you’ve been out of the workforce for 20 years, on top of being female and perhaps wearing hijab to boot–where are you going to be if this man decides to skip out? And chances are, all of those Muslims who told you it was wrong to ask for a sizable dowry that you could put aside, save, invest, what have you, very few of them are going to step up and help you when the eviction notice is posted on your door.
I do understand the situation in many ME countries with high dowries and the complications that it sometimes causes. But each person has to evaluate the specifics of their own situation and what is best for their particular set of factors, and don’t let what might be alright for somebody else cause you to make a decision that is not smart for you.
Essence magazine did a big article a while back about wealthy black men (presumably not muslim) going to Brazil to find women. I guess that’s the non Muslim Morrocco. The problems in the Af. American community cut across religion, income level, education level.
Yep! I know just what you mean! My non-Muslim cousin goes to Brazil often and was at one time looking to marry from Colombia, because he came up seeing AfAm women running after our other irresponsible cousin who mooched off of women for years. Then that same moocher recently got married to a really “good catch”. She’s smart and attractive and all that other stuff, a news reporter so you know she had her pick of men. So my successful cousin turned and said “That’s it! I’m happy for ____, but it’s not like I got cooties!”
He had a point, though. Black people ask for too much from each other, then get all easy-going and understanding and patient and mild-mannered with people of other backgrounds. To put it mildly, Black men and women hate each other! I’m happily married to an AfAm Muslimah, but I was lucky! If she died or left, I’d be considering some Somali sisters because one might remind me of my wife (she looks like them). I’m not gonna luck up like that twice in my life, and neither is she!
I am an African-American sister and was married to a brother for eight years before he went to Morocco to get married when he told me he was going to see his grandmother in South Carolina.
When he came home we fought about it but stayed married until a year later when he brought his Moroccan wife over. At that point he rented for her a house, even they she had no kids, while I was stuck in a two-bedroom apartment in the “hood” with three children. He took food off of the plate of our children to buy her clothes and nice furniture while I slept on a sofa bed . When we got married I was not thinking about the mahr, it was not something I was raised to think about as a black woman from an unIslamic background from Brooklyn, but when we got the divorce I saw the wisdom of the mahr. I guess he get tired of me complaining because one day he left, called me on the phone and pronounced a talaq, and has not seen me or his children since while he has fathered two children by this Moroccan woman from what I hear.
The masjid was no help in this situation and I ended up leaving New York for a more affordable area where I could raise my children on my own. I could be bitter about this situation, and I am certainly not happy, but rather than wallow in pity I got my stuff together and when I was ready looked for a new husband and it just so happened I found a very pious and caring white Muslim to marry. I think this is an option that black women need to start looking at. If our men do not value us and want to always run off and marry something lighter then we can do the same thing. Of course most black women want a black man for cultural reasons, familiarity, and the issues surrounding sexual relations, I know that but I think that if you look hard enough you can find non African-American men who can be compatible on all those levels.
all of those Muslims who told you it was wrong to ask for a sizable dowry that you could put aside, save, invest, what have you, very few of them are going to step up and help you when the eviction notice is posted on your door.
You know what? That gives me an idea! Why don’t all those stank-breath n—-s that sit in the masjid all day because they have no job and tell sisters not to ask for more than an iron ring to volunteer to step up in the event that their triflin’ homie skips out on his family? And the next time someone says to only ask for the value of a porkchop as a dowry, why don’t we start a fad of asking those folks “Will you pay the difference in case he runs off?” or on the flipside; “I only asked him for a little bit, sister, I ain’t tryin’ to bankrupt him. It’s a risk either way, so since you think I’m being stupid why don’t you pay that high dowry for him?” No, really, because for some women money is more important that the man and they need a high dowry. For others, the man is more important than the money and they can afford to ask for less and still be happy. It’s up to the women. What’s really messed up is just Triflin Ock skipping out on his family in one scenario and in another Single Sister letting Burqah Boomsheka talk her into asking for a dowry that no one can afford. Aside from those problems it should be pretty simple, right?
At first reading of this article, I would assume that Umar has something against Moroccan women as being cheap and easy to get because they are desperate enough to get with African-American men. Amazing!
Nah, they were already cheap and easy before they started selling themselves while trying to escape the Maghrib and grip of King Muhammad VI.
I don’t care about the negative traits atributed to Moroccan women, but Umar give the black brothers a break bro.
Obviously Umar is well read and opinionated but doesn’t understand the complexities of the AA community. This article makes it seem as though AA sisters are keen to marry AA brothers. If this is true then they probably need to be more aggressive in their searches by getting walis to contact perspective brothers instead of waiting around like innocent damsels to be approached. Personally I think that it’s rediculous that a brother(or anyone) has to go through the headache of going overseas for a spouse, but the underlying problems that exists within the AA muslim community makes people resort to these extremes. AA muslims sisters inherit the same traits of the non-muslims sisters when it comes to choosing mates. Many times women will go for guys that are KNOWN to be womanizers and loosers that can’t keep a job etc. ,while the hard working guy gets ignored, or has to kiss wali ass just to put his name in a hat to marry sisters. More than likely the brother that DOES have the job, the education, and upward mobility has to work harder because he isn’t out and about selling oils, spittin game, and tryin to be super ghetto shiekh with connections to back in the day when the other brothers were in the NOI. The decent hard working brother will more than likely work hard and study at night. The type of quiet person that EASILY flies under the radar and never gets noticed. Muslim AND non-muslim black women do this. Not all of course but many.
Personally, if I had things my way then an AA would be the FIRST CHOICE, because we share a common culture and experiences, and black and mixed sisters are as attractive as any others. Nonetheless if many AA brothers are flocking to Morocco to get women form more traditional backgrounds then it only reflects the animosity between AA men and women. Now, for the brothers that go overseas to marry, but already have wife and children back in the USA which they barely care for, then I can say that these types of men are DISGRACEFUL and trife(ling).
Mr. Umar you stated that most of the black American brothers that are married to Moroccan sisters mostly unhappy because of gold-digging, money hungry, petty women etc. Sir, the only way that these Moroccan sisters can act like this is if the brothers ALLOW themselves to be treated this way by these Moroccan women. In other words, these foreign sisters who act like this can play you only if you LET THEM DO IT. From my experiences most Moroccan men treat their women like pure crap and have no problem physically abusing them, so many of these women(especially the poorer ones) have the misconception that American men are pushovers with lots of money. And many times the American brothers live up to the stereotype(except for the money part). You made some mentions about brothers married to Moroccan women having problems because of money spent on family/Moroccan in-laws etc. For myself personally, there’s no way in HELL that I would be spending money to take care of a woman’s family…and I would feel NO obligation to do so. If a guy is pressured into taking care of a Moroccan woman’s family and be pushed around and p***y whipped by a Moroccan woman that should really be thankful that someone from a rich country wants to be married to her, then it’s because of his weakness.
My AA sisters may think that I’m dissing them or being hard on them, but the truth of the matter is that AA’s need to start loving each other because it’s starting to be known that many foreigners like Moroccans have a thing for scamming Americans etc. to get green cards and money. If a brother DOES decide to go to Morocco or wherever to get a wife, then he should get an educated women and not one of the many ignorant/illiterate skanks that hunt for green-cards over there.
In the end Morocco isn’t the solution to the problem for AA men, just a dirty band-aid that infects the wound unfortunately.
Salaams…
The only reason we are called Negro/Then Black/now African-Americans is that we were stripped from our Motherland, mores, values etc… Having said that…we once identified ourselves (not by nations) but by the regions from whence we came i.e., Youruba, Ashanti, Fullah etc… To belong to this Ummah (The final Ummah of Allah SWT) we should appreciate the universality of this existence and embrace each other, irrespective of race or nationality. The very thing that we as Africans in America are arguing against…is the very solution to the “crisis in the Black family”. I encourage the “cross-pollination” of cultures in marriage, particularly with respect to African cultures (be they Senagalese, Somalian, Sudanese, or Moroccan) for this element along will allow for a culutural in-flux of “old” Mother Africa back into the Black family structure here in America…which has been lost and otherwise dessimated by internal strife and external forces over the last 40 years. The African cultures will allow us as Afro-Americans to get back to the family values and foundation that were held in-tact thru chattel slavery, the Antebellum period and Jim Crow. The “Integration Trap” and materialism (internal) along with the removal of Black men from the workforce and the Prison Industrial Complex (the new plantation for Black men)…and as a result…the household (external) has created a breakdown that is reflected in the so-called African-American family…whether we are Muslim or otherwise. Please visit my website (www.darfur23.org). Lastly, if there are any doubts or confusion concerning whom we should marry…resort to the Qur’an ( the last testament of Allah) and then the Sunnah of the last Rasoullah (SAW). May Allah grant you the peace that awaits the righteous in Jannah.
Your Brother in Islam
(AL- Hajj) Abdul-Malik Aziz
AL X,
I know many AA men who went to Brazil and Colombia etc. to find wives because the were tired of being overlooked by our beautiful black women in favor of thugs, players, and other loosers.
Just about all of them said that they find AA women very appealing(as much as any other women if not more), but at the same time they shouldn’t suffer because they don’t live up to the negative stereotypical images of black men that are found to be attractive to some. All of these guys had good jobs and are NOT socially awkward and deformed. So that argument is out the door….
Salaam Alaikum,
It’s sad to read such vitriol about our brothers and sisters in Islam.
This is the thing, overseas, home grown, rich or poor, the problems are because people do not fear Allah swt and take their deen seriously.
Until this is fixed, everything else is just bolting the door after the horse is bolted.
A man should not need to pay money to take marriage seriously, Marriage is serious as stated in the Qur’an and hadith, if he or she does not feel that with all their heart, then they are not worth marrying.
Likewise, how can you marry somone you don’t respect? For a passport! Fear Allah swt, because that is no better then prostitution.
walaikum salaam,
Safiya……nobody could’ve said it better than you just have.
As Salaam Alaikum,
I’m not sure where to begin. I see blame can be dissed out on all/both sides. Ok, now what? what do do? hmmmmm
I think at this point Imam’s shouldn’t marry couples without them taking part in mandatory marriage counseling that should last at least 2-3 months.
Credit checks, blood test, and background checks should be mandatory for both. I just see to many man marring and dumping women like a poker hand and the kids left behind from these marriages will come back to hunt us all for sure.
If you have a problem with taking the time out for council and a simple background check then why should I be comfortable undressing in front of you later?
Before I got married We both ran our credit reports and his was much worst than mine but that didn’t mean I wouldn’t marry him. However, I think whats on the report says a lot about the person and if they REALLY are READY for marriage. I mean if a dude can’t even qualify to get a couch on credit then thats a huge alarm bell.
Credit really only tells you how strong that persons word will be. So you both have a right to use this indicator when you come close to getting married to help you decide what kind of person this is and what might possibly lay ahead for you.
When i insisted on a credit report and STD test I got lots of negative feedback from sisters telling me I was going to far and it comes off like I’m a gold digger.hnhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhfh
As Salaamu Alaikum:
The bottom line is that men need to step up to the plate and take care of their responsibilities and fear that Day on which everyone will receive their due haqq. Sisters need to have more self-esteem (stop being desperados) and education both Islaamically and secularly and stop accepting less due to their limited understanding of Islaam. No one is going to respect anyone who does not respect themselves and others around them. For sisters and brothers that grew up in the inner city, that way of life seems to be embedded in them in such a way that even Islaam has not aided them in changing themselves. If you haven’t submitted yourself to Allah and this Deen, you will not deal justly with anyone else including yourself.
I don’t blame the Moroccan women because yes, as many have stated here, they are poor and terribly undereducated. And just for the record, Darija, the dialect they speak in Morocco, is not Arabic by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it is a mixture of the Berber languages, French and Arabic which turns out to be something else almost entirely. These women are getting married for different reasons than Western women do. Eastern women get married for money and upward mobility. That is why you can find the most tired, unattractive and financially strapped brothers getting wives from that and other poor Muslim countries. Their families don’t mind them getting married to “Black men” if it means they can get what they need and desire through him whether it is to come to America or eat meat everyday or renovate their houses. Western women get married for compatibility, friendship and I dare say love. This is not the case for many Eastern women who have never been outside of their countries. They are looking at it like, “I better take this man even though he is not attractive to me in the least. I can fake it to make a better way for me and my family.” And yes, many of these sisters, of course not all, but many do “fake it” in front of their husbands while doing and saying other things behind their backs. The saddest part is that some brothers are ignorant enough to think that all women aren’t the same just with different problems. Their women speak badly about them to their friends and families sometimes right in front of their faces (most of these brothers don’t speak the language). They also abuse some of their children that come out of these marriages (or children from a previous “Black marriage”) because they are “Black looking” or not Arab enough ect. The kids don’t say anything because they know they will get it when Abi isn’t home. Of course not all racial and culturally mixed relationships are like this. This is just to show a contrast to the “there are no problems with Arab women crew”. All women are a fitnah. I didn’t say it your Prophet said it, Salallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam.
And brothers, remember that your children that come from these marriages will still be Black. You are what your father is in the Muslim world. Think about what you do and why because one day someone could try to do the same to your daughters; someone may not want your daughters because they aren’t what their mothers were to you. It won’t be a good feeling, trust me. And for those men and women who think getting married to a person of a different race will totally change things for your children and how they will be perceived, you must remember that Allah creates what He wills and he can create your children to look like they are not “mixed” at all. Fruit for thought.
As for brothers getting disrespected and the likes then this is a grave problem that many sisters have no matter their color. Women need to learn how to treat their men. If you have a good one, then he deserves everything from the khair from you. Women who have good men should be breaking their necks to do what their good men want and need. We should make this a top priority. Instead you find women doing everything under the sun for trifling men who have no goals or future plans other than to live off of women, get another wife that they can’t take care of and take advantage of the many desperate situations that many sisters find themselves in. Someone mentioned that good brothers are often overlooked and I definitely see this as a major issue for Black women, especially good men of other races. If a non-Black or non-whatever brother comes to you, speak to him in a halal way and ask Allah for the guidance. It could be that you find what you are looking for in a package other than what you may want. Allah has said that we may hate a thing that is good for us and this is true. Why continue on with the same brothers regardless of race if they aren’t giving you what it is you need and want? Does that make since? Oh because you want this brother because you *think* a certain intimate stereotype could apply to them? Yeah but he can’t take care of you or your children in any way shape or form so what good is that for you expect to make you gain more weight and have more children to take care of. IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!
Some women have even left decent brothers over trivial matters such as intimacy and money. IF your husband is trying sisters and he has many more good attributes than not, HOLD ON TO HIM!!!! That is something you can work with. Remember, you aren’t perfect to him either. Instead of doing this, you see sisters giving up their rights to some of the most ignorant brothers before they even do the ‘aqd only to be extremely regretful later.
And yes, many good sisters who are educated do live as though they are holding their breathe in their marriages because they don’t know if their husbands that have been treating them so well all along will “flip the script” so to speak and everything that used to be ‘we” and ‘us” is now about “him” and “his haqq” or “his qawwam”. In lieu of that, women do tuck money, get educated and get what they need to get out of their marriages. At the end of the day, no one is going to aid these sisters the ways that they need it except themselves with the Help and Aid of Allahu subhanahu wa ta’ala. Some women just aren’t ignorant enough to let themselves be fooled into thinking everything will be peaches and cream forever. Who is going to pay the bills and take care of the children if a divorce has taken place or there is a case of abandonment? Exactly.
The Prophet saw told the men to marry if they are able. If the man cannot afford the woman and his kids properly, is he able? If the man cannot afford a reasonable dowry that a woman of a certain status can expect (i’m not talking about crazy insane middle eastern dowries here) is he able?
If someone were to ask me, I would say ‘no’ to both questions.
I dare say there is much wisdom in a lot of ‘back home’ parents looking for ‘well established’ and ‘educated’ husbands for their daughters. The one problem that they don’t then generallly have to deal with is poverty. Some people go overboard in this, as we know is the case in saudi for instance, but not everyone from ‘back home’ is like this.
A few things. There are a lot of good black muslim brothers out there holding it down and married to black sisters. Having said that I have at least six sisters I know who have been divorced in favor of Moroccan wives and I live in a small community. We have single black sisters that cannot find anyone to marry and the older sisters at the masjid act as if it is haram for sisters to look for white, Latino, Arab, or Pakistani brothers and that is also a problem. Like a sister said earlier if the brothers seek to marry non African-Americans then why cant we do the same? I am married to a hard working and decent black man who loves Allah and his family. My sister is married to a European-American Muslim and he is also a very good husband and makes her happy. It is whatever works for that person. There is nothing wrong with marrying a Moroccan, but I just dont see why Muslim men abandon their African-American wives and families in order to do so if they fear Allah? I also do not see why you would want to marry someone who often does not speak a common language or share anything in common when there are single sisters right here in America.
Imanubillah
Yes, it is VERY true that Moroccan dialect is STILL Arabic, despite the fact that it isn’t fus-ha.I learned Arabic through Moroccan dialect and I can still understand middle-eastern dialects, so the the BS about Moroccan not being Arabic is just that.
excellent points you have made there….
ummm I need to make a correction. Yes, Moroccan Arabic is a has many berber and French words and is pronounced with a berber accent which makes it difficult to understand for Arabic speakers from other parts of the Arab world. For myself, it was my first dialect so therefore it made learning the Egyptian and levantine varieties easier…..
I’ve studied Moroccan Arabic and Arabic is my third language. I found that the grammar and word usage doesn’t help you read or understand the Qur’an, let alone the newspaper. Seriously, in Morocco it was hard to have a conversation with women because many were not educated enough to clean up their Arabic enough to be intelligible to a beginning Moroccan Arabic student and advanced Fushah speaker. When I came back from Morocco, my grammar was all jacked up. Darijah Maghribiyyah is Arabic, but only intelligible to Algerians and maybe Tunisians.
I’m glad that you understand other dialects, but maybe that has to do with some other language training you have. My background in Moroccan Arabic did not help me understand Egyptian or Kuwaiti. I mean, Moroccans understand Egyptian because all the movies. But often I find that they struggle to speak to other Arabs. Seriously Moroccan to Shami or Masri is like English to French. In my opinion Sudanese Arabic is pretty clear and Yemeni is not so bad either.
I think Umar Lee gets the sad stories from the brother’s end. I just wanted to clarify, I’m not mad that brothers marry Moroccans. But it is when these Black men justify their decision by saying things that denigrate me and say racist and sexist things that you’d think came out the mouth of David Duke, I got a problem. I’ve had bad experiences with Black men, but you don’t see me bashing them or calling them all trifling. There are good men of all ethnicities. I just think we all have different issues that play out in different ways.
Any brother that would leave his kids and mistreat his first wife is bound to do it to these women. I remember the first time I met a couple where the man spoke no Arabic or French and the woman no English. She was older and he told her he was going to take another wife. There have been some really sad marriages where Moroccan women have been mistreated and abused. My friend spent a lot of time helping out one who couldn’t read or write with legal paperwork. Some men just fly these women out here, don’t marry them legally, and abandon them. I don’t think all the Moroccan women are gold diggers or petty. Some got into situations because they were naive. They have hopes and dreams and these men seem like knights in shining armor. Prince charming wasn’t only good looking and charming, but rich too. But then the reality of being thousands of miles from home and isolated in a country you don’t understand sinks in. Many women struggle in these marriages, going through fits of depression. Also, a lot have a culture of paranoia. If these sisters weren’t educated right, they may still hold superstitious beliefs and think that everyone got some evil-eye-magic out to get them. (Khamsa khamseen!!!) Then they start doing magic and weird stuff. BTW, Moroccan women have a bad reputation in the gulf. It’s sad. I have read news articles about the way they are seen here.
I suppose the argument that a lot of the African -American brothers in the USA are using to justify such small dowries is the existence of a financial safety net in the form of welfare should a woman, on being divorced find herself unable to support herself financially. If this is a factor, I think it would be good to have debate on state dependency and whether it’s acceptable for a Muslim to be dependent on the state where alternatives exist. I actually think that this belief is what’s driving the high rate of polygamous marriages, for in many cases men, who can ill supoort one marriage are able to take on sevearl wives because of his and their reliance on state hand-outs.
It seems some people are getting a little confused. Just to clarify the issue of ‘insanely high Middle Eastern dowries’, this is not a problem with the islamic dowry system itself, but a problem with the specific cultural context in those countries. So for example, in Egypt and Saudi Arabia the groom is expected to foot the bill entirely for a lavish wedding complete with all the trimmings, eg, cruise, holiday and jewellery and extras like a maid servant for the bride etc. None of which form part of the dowry, but serve to make marriage prohibitively expensive, and the purpose – to show off and social status. Some young people have got around this by simply going abroad to get married where the same cultural context does not exist. Another thing that makes marriage difficult in these countries is that the groom is often expected to be highly educated and often a doctor, lawyer or engineer etc before he will even be considered for marriage, by that time he is a minimum of age 30 at least .
Similarly, in the indian subcontinent there is an entirely different cultural context. Here the bride’s father is expected to pay a dowry to the groom in order for him to marry his daughter. You will find the groom demanding a 2 story mansion, with a plush car in the drive way, and the cash to match in the bank before he will even consider marrying the girl. So the problem is with the specific cultural context. The solution is not to limit the dowry itself, but to remove the cultural baggage which allows it to be abused.
For those brothers that are moaning about high dowries, most sisters are just not motivated by money in the same way as some men are. What motivates women more is a hardworking man who is able to take responsibility and will stick around when the going gets tough. Most sisters who find a man like this will gladly accept a lower dowry, for it is what is in your heart that is important to us and not how much is in your pocket. And if a sister does request a higher dowry then don’t automatically assume it’s because she’s greedy, maybe she’s requesting it for her own protection. Some brothers can be really cruel when things go wrong and they just fling their wife out onto the street with no where to go and with only the clothes she’s wearing. They even hold back her belongings by saying that I paid for all of that stuff (her clothes and shoes) and therefore it belongs to me. So don’t be surprised when sisters wise up and demand a bit more so they can at least get themselves into a hotel/ B&B for a few nights, pay for food/ heating for a few nights and/ or get themselves a ticket over to their family/ relatives’ home till they can get themselves sorted out and get a job. And incidentally families are not always amenable/ able to accommodate sisters or take them back ofter they’ve been divorced (stigma of divorce/ family shame/ financial probs etc.). So don’t always be quick to assume it’s because sisters are greedy.
Hijabisoverrated,
You said “I mean if a dude can’t even qualify to get a couch on credit then thats a huge alarm bell.”
I think the first alarm bell should be if the man has to run out to do ribba to buy a couch. I understand good credit, but the man should be able to furnish his new wife a house without having to resort to something outside of the deen in the first place.
It would seem there are a lot of men out there getting married who can barely afford to pay for themselves, let alone a wife and any future children.
When I got married I moved from where I was living a took a $20,000 a year pay cut to be with my wife and where her family lives. She was going to school full time, so there was only one income, and it has remained that way through two children. Now she is working on her Masters, as well as taking care of the children.
Sacrifice is needed to make a family work, but to be able to sacrifice you must have something to sacrifice in the first place. If you can only afford to pay a rug or hijab as dowry, it is likely you are at the bottom of your rope and have nothing left to sacrifice.
A woman in such a case is more than certainly going to end up in poverty, and if there are children, they are going to go without.
Such a brother should not get married.
Yahya,
The Morrocan dialect is Arabic, but it is on the extreme fringes of it. That is exactly why you can find many native born Arabic speakers who have a very hard time understanding Morrocans when they speak.
If one wants to approach Arabic to learn it in a conversational manner, Morrocan Arabic would NOT be the way to start. With teh influence of Egyptian dialect in the Arab world today, Egyptian dialect might be the way to start. That or Lebanese. Between the two countries they dominate Arabic media and as such both dialects are readily understandable by the vast majority of Arabs.
If you want a dialect that will be conversation, yet has a more easy crossover to Fus7a, one of the Saudi dialects would work, with Hijazi being the best, and the najdi accent in second.
Marrying a Morrocan to learn Arabic is the Joha’s method of learning the language.
Yahya, you weren’t lying when you said these brothers aren’t socially awkward. My cousin isn’t by any means, neither one is. He and I both had the same problems to different extents, but when I won three fights in a year that changed for a while. And neither of us are socially awkward. It was just that even straight-arrow ‘good’ sisters were looking for us to fit negative stereotypes. He’s now in his forties, still a bachelor, and he’s hard on women because he’s consistently seen their worst. I mean really, everything he knows about women is depressing; he knows they’re materialistic by nature which is normal and okay, but he saw AA women consistently wanted him for his money and still wanted to be strong-willed. I became Muslim and was later introduced to a pious AA Muslimah who had nothing against my complexion and hair texture, but he’s still single. He no longer even wants to marry, he used to but not anymore. His idea; if women were slighting him to give more to another man then he wants sex with no commitments now, and this is for the women he likes.
These are the effects of this unIslamic society we got in America and these are the ideas we got to leave behind in Islam. Both sexes. Men got to stop trying to ditch darker women for lighter women so they can live in their Arab fantasy land, and women got to quit looking to take from good men so they can support the triflin’ n___as they want to be with. Really, no pious Muslimah should be attracted to a man she knows is trifling in the first place, and if she still wants that after her shahada then she should get counseling for it just like men who come into the deen but still want a stripper to be with.
I just read some of the earliest comments on here and saw Pessimist. After thinking about this last night and then reading his comment this morning I see that there really is no solution to this problem at all, unless you want to replace it with another. This problem starts with a bunch of other problems, and they’re all due to oppression of Black people going back a long time and then we don’t want to fix ourselves. But pondering this, I realize it couldn’t have turned out any other way! This problem and every other problem were going to happen exactly as they have because Muslims left their deen. Poverty in Morocco, poverty and self-hatred here in the US, desperation for basic things in life, all of these because we left our religion! The solution to many of these problems is to just have more money but we money’s hard to get, right? Well, it looks hopeless now, doesn’t it? Because how far should we be willing to go to get more money to solve our problems since lack of it is at the heart of all of this? What do you all recommend? Because I’ve heard all of this talk about the problem but not 1 solution that isnt another problem just like he said! Frankly I’m starting to believe that life as a Muslim isn’t worth living after listening to this. What am I supposed to tell my kids about marriage in this society if there are all these risks and no safeguards, all these problems with no solutions? So how do we get this money without selling our religion for it?
Abu Sinan has made some good points and I think that Sis. Aichas’ response hits the nail on the head. Alot of men can’t afford to get married as they can barely support themselves – they do rely on state handouts to support their families/ supplement their income, and failing that, some are quite happy to live off their wife.
A1X – What’s wrong with a woman being strong willed? You can be married and be strong willed – there’s nothing in Islam that says that you can’t be strong willed/ opinionated. It seems to me that some men seem to have problems with women who are like this.
Margari is spot on about the Arabic thing. I have no problem with Khaliji dialects, as that is where I started learning Arabic. Sudanese is fine, Levant okay, and North Africa is awful.
French tended to be a better reference point for me traveling in North Africa, and keep in mind my French is and was rather limited. German, which I know better, was of very limited use.
I would have to dispute a bit of what Farzana has said about dowries. In the Gulf dowries are a HUGE issue. Why? Because some women do indeed ask for tens of thousands of dollars in dowry. This might be in gold, cash, properties, what have you.
So along with paying for the lavish wedding they still have to come up some $50,000+ for a dowry. It has become such an issue that certain governments have even enacted legal measures to protect against it. I think in Saudi Arabia, by law, the highest a dowry can be is about $5,000, but that law is regularly ignored.
I am all in favour of a decent dowry. A hijab, piece of clothing or promises are not good enough. As a convert it was all new to me when I got married. I asked my wife what she wanted in dowry, she made a request of a sum of cash. It turned out to be several thousand dollars and I accepted, why not? If the wife to be turns out to be greedy and asks for an excessive amount, that is a good indicator of what life will be like with her and it might be time to reassess your marriage plans.
Besides brothers, if you get a decent woman you’ll find that a significant portion of what you give her for a dowry will end up being used to buy things for the new house, and other things that will benefit you both.
We talk about the African American brothers and how jacked up they are in their dealings with Af Am sisters, but it takes two to sign a contract! What type of woman marries for $20, a jilbab or an I owe you hajj note? To me, that says more about the sister than it does about the brother. Like Umar stated, there is a notion in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world that Black women are cheap, hard up and easy targets. Of course, the notion is a stereotype, but stereotypes are not birthed from one bad apple, it takes thousands of examples for word to get out and others to take notice Instead of throwing henna parties for sisters who continuously marry unstable black men who cannot provide for them, we should be honest with them and stop supporting those Muslims who are hindering are progress as a community. Polygyny is another area that black sisters need to be put on front street for! Umar, there needs to be an honest conversation on whether black American Muslims are even suitable for polygyny at all because it is pure craziness that brothers who make nickle and dimes have three wives and it is even crazier that these black sisters are agreeing to enter polygynous marriages! Some of these brothers can’t afford food for their family’s table let alone afford a mahr. Black women are often their own worse enemy and problems, and it’s not the walis, the black brothers, the masajid or anyone else fault that grown women don’t have the courage to act like grown women who were honored with Islam and stand on it. Yes, there needs to services and assistance, but what really needs to change is the mindset of many black American Muslim women. Living with your children without electricity while your strong black Muslim man sells oils and incense on the avenue doesn’t make you pious. Nor does it make you pious or an example if you stay in a marriage after your husband marries the non Muslima Latina at his job and takes on her a honey to Puerto Rico or takes your savings and hops a plane to Morroco while your home or working raising his children. And if I hear one more physically abused sister tell me that Allah test those whom He loves, Im going to fall out! Allah test everyone, the sinners, the disbelievers, and those whom he love. Sisters the first time a man hits you the police, change the locks and get a restraining order, if you don’t you have a problem and you need therapy asap. Sisters have got to stop aiding these sick brothers fetishes, abuses and injustices and demand treatment that is deserving of a Muslim and if that means you have to remain single for two or three years and hold down your family until Allah grants you a good husband, then so be it. Batteries are a lot more dependable and easier to replace than the emotional scars from a no good Muslim man.
Omar and everyone else, salam,
Muslims, especially sisters, need to make sure that the marriage contract also includes a promissory note for the mahr. Some states may not recognize mahr, so when the guy skips out, sister is stuck with a piece of paper but no money.
See link, Ohio doesnt recognize mahr (so far, appeal pending).
http://www.abajournal.com/news/oh_dowry_ruling_is_appealed_important_muslim_marriage_issue/
Salam
Ammar
For me I would not want a weak willed sister. It is a human characteristic to take advantage of those who are weak.
One of the things I looked for in a wife was someone who was intelligent and who had a mind of their own.
My wife is university educated and has a very strong will, but I say that as a person who does not think that is a negative thing. If I wanted a pet or an animal I’d want it to be submissive and weak, when I wanted a wife/partner/friend, I wanted them to be my equal.
What this whole dowry issue boils down to is something that we are all lacking in all aspects of Muslim life in the world today, balance. Islam is a religion of balance, not extremes.
Asking $50,000 for a dowry is extreme, and in most societies in the world today, getting a piece of cloth as a dowry is extreme as well.
Balance!
Ammar,
That is exactly why the woman in a non Islamic society should get the dowry BEFORE the wedding. As an Islamic contract is not binding in the West, you are just taking the person’s word for it, there is NO way to enforce it.
Also, the man must be willing to do an official state service. Without it the marriage is not even recognised by the state and hence the woman has ZERO right to any defense.
Salam, the brothers African Philly and Abdul Jabbar always make sense.
I could say I’m married to a Moroccan but that would reveal too much. The sisters are beautiful and provide a wise regional and sensible choice to brothers in America and here, from the African-Muslim diaspora. Who
Many brothers do not like White women, and find the Western ways of black women hurtful. Yahya hit home about the quiet brother with drive being overlooked by them.
But Allah blessess the sincere and in looks, in style, he has offered them the choice of women who speak not only Arabic but also French and who happend to also being on the continent where the ancestors hailed from.
No Saudi or khaliji women can provide that (but Magiri is right about the African element there too and I suggest she should consider one of the brothers there, inshallah)
I have heard the criticisms. Much of it based on jealousy. I’m not sure who Mr Lee knows, but the brothers I know do not tell the same story.
A buddy of mine advised me to leave this topic alone. To write about it, he said, would be giving too much credence to a few freaky brothers who are paying for sex — and buying into the fantasies that come as part of the package.
But the sister in me just couldn’t let this one go.
In this month’s Essence magazine, there’s a provocative piece by Spelman College history professor William Jelani Cobb on black men’s sex vacations in Brazil. Apparently, it’s been an open secret for some time that more and more black men from the United States have been going to Rio de Janeiro to soak in more than just the Afro-Latin-laced atmosphere at Carnival, but the sexual favors of comely young Afro-Latinas whose willingness to please is, in many cases, often the only skill that saves them from starvation.
Apparently, the women’s neediness, bolstered by their subservience and an assemblage of exotic features handed down from centuries of slavery and miscegenation, combine to create a cocktail of illusion for the brothers. Some of the men, who ranged from bankers and entrepreneurs to firefighters and police officers, said that going to Rio was an escape from the pressures exerted by a white society that sees them only through the lens of pathology, and from gold-digging sisters who only measure them by the size of their wallets.
Being surrounded by “dimes,” or perfect tens, in Rio — many of whom will cook, clean and have sex with them simply for the chance to stay with them at a nice hotel and to eat well for a week — affirms their manhood, they said.
That’s sad — the fact that some brothers believe that being serviced by a prostitute, rather than being supported by a strong partner, amounts to affirmation.
There’s 43-year-old “Keith,” who brags about a 20-year-old Brazilian girl who, in addition to having sex with him, cooks and cleans for him and treats him “like a god.” Then there’s “Don,” the brother who arranges the Rio tours for other brothers, who talks of how his Brazilian wife serves him breakfast in bed every morning, and wouldn’t dream of letting him wash a plate.
I imagine that if Don ever gets another wife, he’ll be bragging about how she liked it when he hit her over the head with his club and dragged her by her hair to his cave.
But I’m not going to yell and scream about the fact that the men are buying sex — which is legal in Brazil as long as the prostitute is 18 or older. That’s been happening since the beginning of time. What bothers me is that this trend is one that treads waves of dysfunction in the relationship between many black men and women in the United States — and one that also displays a callous disregard for the plight of people of color in the Diaspora.
One explanation that I found to be somewhat befuddling was from the men who said they come to Rio seeking TLC because it helps them to escape a society in which they feel oppressed by the negative expectations of white people and the materialistic demands of black women.
Yet, their way of feeling free in Rio is by acting out the same materialistic standards — albeit on the cheap — that they claim make them feel so devalued in the United States.
I doubt, for example, if any of Don’s clients who complain about gold-digging black American women are hooking up with Rio women by going to a park and initiating a casual conversation with them in hopes that will lead to romance. Chances are they don’t speak the language anyway.
What they do is go to clubs and bars — places where the women surround them and lie to them about how much they look like Denzel Washington as a prelude to naming their price. Yet, this doesn’t make them feel like prey — as it would if a bunch of gaming sisters in the United States did it. Instead, it makes them feel like ballers. So their idea of feeling liberated is built around the same materialism that they claim to abhor.
That makes no sense.
Then again, I don’t think it’s supposed to. All it does is reveal the insecurities of many of those brothers, brothers who want a woman who only appeals to their senses rather than their minds. They want a woman who they only need to see, touch, feel and feed, one who is just happy to eat and live well for a week. The men who buy them don’t want a partner as much as they want a footstool.
What’s more is that the brothers who are seeking sex from women in Brazil aren’t contributing to their own sense of freedom as much as they’re contributing to the continued exploitation and subjugation of Third World women. I mean, many of these women live on less than a $1 a day. Their history as black men in America — a history of being reduced to a sexualized, pack-mule sort of object — ought to make them think twice about buying 18-year-old girls for sex and maid service without thinking of other ways to help them make a living without having to get on their backs or, for that matter, on their knees.
One thing is for sure. If brothers are trying to find freedom by sexing impoverished Brazilian women, they’re mistaken. The only way they’ll ever get any real freedom is to stop defining it in the same way as their oppressors do.
And come up with a definition that, in the end, uplifts and affirms everyone.
So it appears Brazil is not the answer either – ROFL
Cleveland, OH (BlackNews.com) – A recent study suggests that more professional African American men from the United States are going to Brazil to live the lifestyle that most men only dream about.
Jewel Woods conducted extensive interviews with professional black men who experienced the sex tourism industry in Brazil. Speaking with black men in cities nationwide, Woods found that many professional black men seek overseas what they are not getting in America and from professional black women. The majority of the men in the study were highly accomplished. Middle-range professionals were interviewed as well.
Woods is the “study behind the story” and is quoted in September’s Essence magazine in “Blame It on Rio.” The article investigates rumors of African American men traveling to Brazil for secret sex vacations.
“The study raises questions and concerns about the traditional belief systems of the black middle class, the black family, and the “sexual politics” between black men and women. It also raises questions about what is meant by a “good man” and brings new insight into issues of masculinity, morality and male privilege in the 21st Century,” said Woods.
The author of the forthcoming study “The New ‘Ugly American’: Professional Black Men, Sexual Paradise & Brazil,” Woods examines the implications for black men, black women and the black family. He also delves into African Americans’ relationship with the so-called Third World, an important point, especially with so many professional men participating in the Brazilian sex tourism industry.
In a different twist to the sexual innuendo of, “Once you go black you will never go back,” the impact of Brazilian women on the minds and imaginations of professional black men raises the issue “Once you go to Brazil, you will never come back…”
Excerpts from the study can be found at http://www.jewelwoods.com
Jewel Woods, MA is a PhD student at the University of Michigan in the Departments of Social Work & Sociology. He is the founder of Renaissance Male Project and author of a forthcoming study “The New ‘Ugly American’: Black Professional Men, Sex & Brazil.” The study is based on his professional work as a New Voices Fellow 2005.
For more information on Jewel Woods, contact Montrie Rucker Adams, 440-684-9920, mra@visibilitymarketing.com, or visit his Web site, http://www.jewelwoods.com
CONTACT:
Montrie Rucker Adams, APR
440-684-9920
mra@visibilitymarketing.com
http://www.jewelwoods.com
As Salaamu Alaikum:
The problem of welfare is a huge one and I have a major problem with it. But the issue is that many sisters DON’T have a problem with their men expecting them to be on welfare during marriage. Some even use it as a means to get men. Many brothers look for sisters who have children to marry in the West because they know they will have all the income supports that are available. Why pay for things if you don’t have to? For many men, this is a normal way to think. But brothers, don’t be surprised if sisters who marry you with all these “amenities” are telling you later on to get out of THEIR houses/apartments and NOT to eat their children’s food. You aren’t going to get any respect as a man if you aren’t doing what men are supposed to do. This is part of the hikmah behind why Allahu suhbanahu wa ta’ala made it incumbent upon the men to protect and provide if they want to have marital relations and for women to obey their husbands in that which is khair if they do so. Many men want to be intimate and not pay. And that is about what these situations are equal to that we see today. The only difference is that now the brothers can use the Deen and twist it to make the sister seem as though she isn’t doing what is righteous and the sisters feel if they don’t give up everything they aren’t righteous enough. Where do people get these ideas? Definitely not from Islaam!!
It’s to the point that many sisters have used reverse psychology on themselves to believe, “I need to stay on assistance because he could skip out then where would that leave me?” or “These brothers are not going to take care of me because I have children so what else can I do?” Or the biggest one, “I want to help my man fisabililah and I don’t want or need what OTHER women do.” What other women? Women with self esteem, integrity and education, that’s who. Women who were used to taking care of themselves and are educated or even women with common sense won’t go for that sort of treatment. At least if you are on assistance for a valid reason use it to get educated so you won’t have to spend the rest of your life begging someone else for a dollar and a piece of bread.
It is crazy for a woman to think she is being more righteous on income supports than the woman who is receiving her full rights and giving her husband his rights as well. Are you saying that what Allah sent His messenger with, sallallahu ‘alahi wa sallam, is not just and from the best of hikmah? This is how Allah intended marriage in this Deen to be. Not just another case of exploitation. Give up your rights if you will. They are yours to give up. But don’t play the blame game later because of your own mistakes.
Sisters who accept this kind of treatment or make it easy on these brothers to marry them without having to do anything ALWAYS get the short end of the stick. But just as some previous posters stated, women who do this bring their ill treatment on themselves. If you get married with no tangible dowry and you decide to stay on income supports to help HIM then know that he can find 2, 3, 4 women just like you.
If you were going to stay on income supports don’t tell these brothers that. The compromises in marriage come AFTER the contract is finalized not before that. Help him if he is good. Some brothers out there are good but they maybe struggling at a point in trying to achieve tangible goals (college, starting a real business ect). But the help you give will only be determined within the scope of your marriage. Whatever you agree to prior to marriage the man will expect you to stick to because he probably married you based upon what you agreed to. So later on you probably won’t have much success asking for more no matter what the scenario maybe.
Women kill me sitting in front of brothers pretending they are righteous and pious by giving up their rights. Men are not going to respect easy women. This wasn’t the case in jahiliyyah and it isn’t the case now. The men are not to blame for all of this. Women have to have some self respect and stop being so desperate. Desperation puts a lot of sisters in really horrible situations. Then other sisters always want to talk about the sister who is living on the edge of the Deen not wearing a khimaar/niqaab anymore if she is still Muslim at all. And of course these are the same sisters who pushed women to degrade themselves to get a man. Who can handle all the fitn?
What’s wrong with a woman being strong willed? Absolutely nothing if she’s also providing. If not, she needs to let the husband who’s doing the earning make the final decisions! If he’s smart he’ll listen to her input and still make the final decision. If she’s also earning for the house then it stands to reason that they both have to agree. You can be married and be strong willed but the golden rule is that who ever earns the gold makes the final rules (within the halal, of course.) It seems to you that some men seem to have problems with women who are like this because they do, but they’re supposed to be able to afford to take care of a household by themselves if they have that problem.
As for me, my wife and I both earn so we respect each other’s opinions and consider them to agree on our decisions. If she tries to dominate or hen-peck me I make sure to frustrate her because neither of us are dependent on the other. That works both ways. As long as the respect is mutual then I’m cool with her disagreeing. But once a man makes enough to maintain it all with his own income he shouldn’t have to negotiate within the halal. He should listen, but not negotiate. If he wants to go on a low-cost vacation to the nearest beach and she wants Hawaii, guess where they should be going! If she’s gonna cop the difference then she can refuse. If not, she needs to go with him where he chose or stay her butt at home. The same holds true for men who live off of their wives even if she agrees to it; he needs to listen to her and the decision is hers to make. Do you think I’d bring home all we need by myself and then want to hear her opinions on everything under the sun? If I bring home the ‘halal bacon’ I’m not gonna vent to her and I’m not gonna listen to her vent. I’m gonna turn the TV on to what I want to watch and do whatever I want to do when I want to do it! And when I want her to drop them drawers I don’t want to hear excuses unless she really feels bad or the time is haram for that. All I’m gonna listen to at that point is “Which position you got in mind?” In other words when a man is meeting all of his obligations to his family he still doesn’t own them but he owns their situation. Ditto for the wives maintaining the households by themselves, they own the situation.
As for my cousin, his problem was never them having their own minds, it was them wanting to consume his resources and not listen to him as the man. If he has to be the man when it’s time to earn bread, then it’s only fair that she respect him as the man in the house. That’s all he was asking for, and as easy and fair as it may sound to you, I saw with my own eyes that they just wouldn’t do it for him.
I got another buddy who grew up with those two cousins and he’s going through a divorce because she wanted to take and not give. He said she cut off the sex a year ago. Even among Christians that means he doesn’t have to support her anymore, and he eventually quit his job because it was stressful, still supported her through his savings. They ran out and she asked for a divorce. Both of them are friends so I’m gonna say the truth, she’s hard-nose. His fault was not making enough money for her tastes, which isn’t a sin plus he told her upfront. But she had her own money so she didn’t care. (So she said). Her faults are many. She was strong-willed but always in his pockets, and THAT’S what I was railing against all along.
Marriage is not easy. And I really think that people need to re-orient or educate themselves about marriage. I am not a historian of American History (and I don’t want to make any false claims about what has happened since the “Sexual Revolution”) but I know that much of popular American culture values dating over marriage, sex before marriage over abstinence and career over family.
I think that for younger American Muslims (and it doesn’t matter if they are a convert or not because many of the raised Muslim folks I know have “lapsed” in the past) need an intensive re-orientation to what a marriage entails rather than bringing all types of baggage to a marriage whether that baggage be American or “culturally Islamic”. I’m thinking that a year or two of seriously thinking and preparing for marriage with a learned reliable mentor Muslim will at least get some of that crap out of our system. This doesn’t mean that a marriage will always be a success but it at least lays some foundation.
I personally think it’s important that someone you are seeking for a partner be consistent. Everyone falters but there is a big difference between a man who messes up and then practices 10 years of celibacy and someone just looking to legitimate an unruly sexual appetite through the guise of marriage.
I intend on paying my wife’s mahr entirely in Umayyad and Abbasid era coins. : )
I dont think who is earning what should really come into play when it comes to husband and wife situations.
The man is the head of the household, full stop. With this “power” comes responsibility as well. It doesnt matter who is making what. The woman does not have an obligation to put money into the house. If she does not, whether out of choice or not, does this mean she should have less power in the house? I dont think so.
Marriage is a partnership of equals, with the man being a bit “more” equal than the woman as the head of the house. Incomes does not really come into play here.
To say that power roles and relationship expectations should be a function of who makes more or less money is nonsense. The roles can and should remain the same whether the woman works, or not, or makes more money than the man, or not.
My wife does not work and has not worked for more than a couple of months in the five years we have been married. This does not in any way make her a lesser partner in our marriage. Her lack of income or employment is not what defines her role in the family structure. That is all layed out in the Sunnah and The Qur’an. If she made more money than I did it would not alter the structure or the situation one bit.
One needs to be reminded that wives, even if they do work, are not required to put money into the house. This is the man’s job and nothing changes that. If the wife does work or have money and decides to put it into the house, then it is a charity she is doing for her husband, nothing more. Her choice to give or not to give should not change the family dynamics at all.
My wife does not work, yet has given of her own free will money into the house. That is her choice, one she does not have to make, and it neither increases nor diminishes her standing at all.
Of course the wife should be equal partners within everything that happens with the marriage and the choices that are made, but in the end the man does have the final say. This, again of course, is doen within a fair and legitimate frame work.
Abu Sinan
As Salaam Alaikum,
I didn’t even know my comment was published. I think my little man pushed the button way before I was finish with my comments last night.
Anyway, I was going to say getting a couch is a small thing in the larger scope of things and if a man can’t even get that based on good credit then there is problem.
Using good credit doesn’t mean you have to use riba (and all riba isn’t haraam btw; learn that from figh of finance class) but there are many furniture companies that will allow you to pay the base price without interest for 6m- to 1 year; which is more than enough to pay for a couch.
I know brothers driving their wives cars because they have so many tickets they can’t/refuse to pay them but at the same time don’t want to pay for the car note on the wife’s car that they drive around 24/7.
I know several brothers without licenses to drive and they’re well into their 30′s. However, they have no problem running the street all times of the night in their wives very new and legal cars. One brother was seen with his brother in the IHOP at 7am with 2 women not their wives. I mean what kind of man drives other women around in his wife’s car and takes them on IHOP dates?
Most of the women I know have their apt’s in their names because the husbands credit is so bad they would have never qualified for the apt or they’re force to live in worst neighborhoods because the husbands income isn’t considered because he’s not on the lease.
Upon reflection all of these situations have common themes.
Mostly all the men have been married before or have kids from a previous relationship.
All the sisters are practicing Muslima and the brothers are at best part time Muslims.
All the sisters are educated and come from families were the father was in the home and the men in their lives didn’t.
Some of the men are avid weed smokers.
Just about all of the men have a serious problem with spending any time with their children and feel as if they should never take their children with them anywhere?
All of them have horrible financial habits. Have the freshest clothes on but are good for letting simple bills run late or bank accounts bounce.
But the most important thing I see missing in all of these relationships is a strong dowry and a very strong contract. Heck, must women I know don’t even have a contract at all or if they have it’s very vague and doesn’t address anything substantial.
My contract took over a year to write. It was reviewed by Islamic and secular lawyers to insure it didn’t contradict state or religious laws and would be valid in a court of law. Both of our parents are non-Muslim but we took the time to keep them very involved in the process and included there changes in the contract when needed. Our parents signed the contracts along with a close Muslim family and the contract is at least 8 pages long. The contract was later notarized and we have a state marriage license as well. My husband asked for my father’s permission to marry me 3 times and each time my father told him to come back next year. Partly, because he wanted to see how serious he was, how financially secure he was, and like most fathers he wasn’t quite ready to give me up.
There were other concerns and a series of exercises my parents felt he had to do in order for him to understand our traditions. Traditions that we feel build a strong family. He came from a single family home and never was really close to either side of his family. My family is VERY close; we rotate Sunday dinners every week. We visit our elders; go to family reunions down south, and family ski trips, etc. He was expected to attend all of these things for some time.
He takes the contract VERY seriously; he remembers sections of it by heart. Lol
The contract keeps him focused on our over all goals. We have only been married 3 yrs and we are moving a head much faster than some of my friends who are on their 6th yr of marriage. He wasn’t born Muslim and hasn’t been Muslim no where near as long as me, so it would seem as if adjusting would be much more difficult. I haven’t worked really since the baby was born, and we have another on the way. He has built us a house that inshaAllah we’ll be in by the end of the month if we don’t drop kick the mortgage company 1st. He has secured a better job and never been unemployed. He pays for my continued education. He has fixed his credit and started saving. This is a Black Man straight for the inner city of DC so I know it’s in them to do what’s right.
Alhamdulliah
I think when you take your time and really have some sabr instead of acting like you’re going to die if you don’t get some loving ASAP the men will in general (I hope) treat the entire process more seriously.
I see my marriage relationship is night and day compared to others who are married to Muslim born black men. The educated ones in the Warrith Deen community seem to be fairly decent and stay married but the ones outside of the W D community are ruff around the edges and these are the guys I see causing the most harm. However, I can only speak for the IWD communities in DC/GA/NC area.
Hijabisoverrated,
It sounds like, Masha’Allah, you did it right. I came from a rough background as well, so I am not the typical lefty white convert, but that doesnt give people the excuse to continue living life “business as usual” when they become Muslims.
Islam is supposed to help you straighten out your life, not make you change your game so you can continue living the same way you did before you were a Muslim, just looking for some “Sunnah excuses” to justify things.
Good luck and congratulations on the upcoming baby!
So, what are we saying?.. that men have the final say, regardless of a woman earning money form outside work or are we saying that having the final say is not about gender but about who contributes most financially to the household? If it’s about contributions I can see a very strong argument for women taking paid employment because being a ble to have the final say
leads to an imbalance of power which can so easily lead to abusive situations.
Abu Sinan:
Sorry we never got to bring the kids together before I moved. Perhaps, when I come back this summer we can get all these little boys together.
I think you might have hit something on the nail when you said:
“came from a rough background as well, so I am not the typical lefty white convert, but that doesnt give people the excuse to continue living life “business as usual” when they become Muslims.”
I seriously don’t see the men making changes when the “cross over” They expect the women to be like the mother of the believers but deen obligations when it comes to family is VERY laxed.
I have been to several marraige seminars in many communities and I see a constant theme taking place. I primarly see AA men asking questions in ways that seek to validate them rejecting their family responsiblities. However, I have yet to see one immigrant pose these same type of questions in marriage sessions. I’ve seen them ask some crazy questions… so don’t get me wrong but trying to get the speaker to tell them its halal to have wives on welfare or make her work is one thing I’ve never seen them ask.
As for as maintaining and providing is concerned and who is responsible for what I’ll post some deleel on that later. I just got out of a class that breaks down the Arabic in relation to how some of the hadith aren’t in step with the Quran on the matter.
Let me go get my notes…
Oh, and one more thing I was thinking about from a comment someone else made. I think the process and the amount of dowry does play an important role on the mans future intent to try to stick with it.
Look for exsample at the housing market. Lots of people took advantage of the no money/low money down options, suspect APR rates and other schemes. These people are also the same ones falling into forcloser and that can’t be an accident. They have found that people who pay at least 5% for a house are more likly to stay in the house because they put up a serious amount of MONEY UP FRONT.
Banks have learned from this and you will find it very hard now to get a bank to give you a house without putting at the very least 5% down.
Just something to think about….
margari,
Yes, I agree with your sentiments about languages. I DO have other language trainig which made the transition from Darija to Fus7a and other dialects much easier. For me Arabic is my 4th language, so therefore it wasn’t a big deal for me. The only good thing about Moroccan Arabic is that it’s better than no Arabic at all. I seen middle eastern Arab tourists in Morocco miffed by the darija as well(admittedly). I had my 1st exposure to conversational Arabic through the Moroccan variety, which is why it has a weird special place for me. The gap between Moroccan Arabic and fus7a is one of the causes for the high illiteracy rates in Morocco. As you’ve experienced, most of the print news and info is written in fus7a and also most of the school instruction is in fus7a and French so therefore if someone in Morocco doesn’t attend school, then they won’t learn French nor fus7a and they become illiterate. But you probably already know more about this than me so I’m really talking to the choir(for lack of a better phrase).
I see that in future marriages to Moroccan women will be less appealing due to them being abused by men form abroad and from some of them trying to scam. In the gulf, it is known that Moroccan women are the whores of the Arab world. You should see the plane loads of horny Saudi me that go there to “play.”
Abu Sinan is correct also. I do realize that my experiences are quite unique.
For those that complain the AA men. I can see what you sisters are saying about the trife traits of many of the brothers. Also, within the AA muslim community many of the brothers were former convicts or come from very poor backfrounds as opposed to foreign born muslims and thier children which are usually professionals. Being an AA male, I can say that the attitudes of many(not all) of the AA men in the community is more street-like and rougher around the edges than brothers in other religious settings(such as the church etc.). Dawah needs to be given also to upwardly mobile middle class blacks also. As AA’s we bring much of our ghetto culture into the deen, which is so many sisters have these problem. The best thing for the sisters to do is to stop giving loosers, wannabe thugs, players etc. the time of day for marriage. If a sister can see that a guy is looser before marriage then he WILL NOT change. Also, many sisters need to give thier thug fantasies. Just because a guys knows how to talk slick s**t out of his mouth and has large muscles from working out in the prison yard while on lockdown does not make him a suitable partner. The woman does the choosing because she controls who enters her. In my community here things are so screwed up that many of the sisters here have been passed around between several different brothers and vice-versa. I had no choice but to look outside for a wife because I wanted no part getting with a sister that a couple of the same brothers within the salat line have jizzed into also at some point. Excuse my crudeness……. :)
Salaam alaikum
Sad, I know some amazing Moroccan women. But because they are not represented in this conversation, few people are speaking up for them. The real issue is not about these women in vulnerable positions and struggling with dire poverty. The real issue is men who need to get their intentions right. Going into marriage with with emotional imbalances and an unsound heart spells disaster. And usually the people who get hurt are the ones who are the least empowered, women and even more so the children. It makes me mad when it is the women who suffer, plus they get a bad reputation because of lascivious men, sketchy men from more developed nations(whether from the Gulf, Europe, or America). I’m not saying that all men who marry Moroccan women are sketchy. But when one gives a laundry list of sketchy reasons for making that decision, it sure indicates something is wrong with the picture. My final word is that I am saddened to see that some of the brothers react to this post by continually bashing Black women. Yes, there are women who make bad choices, but you paint us with a broad brush. And those strokes are damaging.
Thanks everyone who contributed constructive dialogue. That makes me hopeful. Those that just spewed nastiness, thanks for nothing.
So a woman’s contribution to a marriage is based on her earning power? Your wife is not a human being who deserves to be treated with respect unless she is helping you to do what is incumbent upon you Islamically? Wow. Perhaps then it’s time that husbands started paying for all of the tasks that their stay at home wives perform. Maid, cook, nanny. Many sisters homeschooling, add in private school tuition as well. The list goes on and on. If they don’t appreciate the services they’re being given out of love, maybe they will if they have to start paying market value.
Village Wise Man (a Sioux Indian) once said, “The honor of the people lies in the moccasin tracks of the woman. Walk the good road…. Be dutiful, respectful, gentle and modest my daughter… Be strong with the warm, strong heart of the earth. No people goes down until their women are weak and dishonored, or dead upon the ground. Be strong and sing the strength of the Great Powers within you, all around you.”
The Elders say the Native American women will lead the healing among the tribes. We need to especially pray for our women, and ask the Creator to bless them and give them strength. Inside them are the powers of love and strength given by the Moon and the Earth. When everyone else gives up, it is the women who sings the songs of strength. She is the backbone of the people. So, to our women we say, sing your songs of strength; pray for your special powers; keep our people strong; be respectful, gentle and modest.
Oh, Great One, bless our women. Make them strong today.
Btw Abdul Jabbar I got that notion about Black women having great marriages because I witnessed my parents marriages, my marriage prior to Islam was beautiful, I divorced after accepting Islam which to this day I feel was a huge mistake.
Black Christian women haven’t been passed aroudn the congregation. Pre-marital counseling is mandatory in the church (at least it was in the church I was raised in as a 7th Day Adventist.) It is hard to find an imam that does this.
I witnessed the marriages of my brothers – ALL with the exception of one have been married for more than 10 years TO THE SAME WOMAN! A beautiful black woman. The one brother who is divorced was married to a Desi who we found out was a trampette. Being the man he is he is raising that child, he knows is NOT his. I witnessed my grandparents marriage, aunts and uncles an the blacks in my circle are married and work through the hardships in their marriages.
There were numerous times when my christian husband and I had disagreements, never once did he utter “enty talek,” or ever threaten me with the typical “if you do such and such, I’ll divorce you.” Then again it’s difficult to end a Christian marriage, it’s not as simple as 2 words which muslims understand. As I’ve mentioned before my father asked me, “Do Muslims take marriage seriously?” I can’t lie to him, so I kept quiet because it’s my view that we don’t.
I don’t spend any time in the inner cities so it’s no surprise I do not see blacks in the same light. I will gladly invite you to the next family gathering – when the Cowboys kick the Skins butt – so you can see all the black married people. I’ll take you over to VA to see the 3 million dollar home my uncle brought for his beautiful CHOCOLATE black wife. As I’ve stated before, during my traveles back and forth I’ve found the south on a whole more “old fashioned,” they have very strong family values compared to the north. I can only speak based on my reality which is not one filled with men from the jailhouse or with a team of baby mammas, women on welfare with multiple baby daddies, or uneducated people. Regardless of what statistics say, I have seen the opposite. I’ve know many white upper class women who have had numerous abortions or put their OOW children up for adoption, but I’d be a fool to say all white are abortion queens and/or abandon their children at birth thus the low rate of oow births.
My white girlfriend used to call me racist because I would often point out the ills of rural white america. She used to work in PG county court system so she had her mind set about blacks. She recently moved down to rural Virginia. As I’ve stated poor European Americans suffer the same ills as poor African Americans in inner cities, she called to apologize because she sees it for herself.
Brother, have you been to PG County… Have you seen all those married and educated beautiful black couples? This is my reality, had I been raised in Crown Heights or Philly perhaps it would be different. I am the product of a very beautiful Christian marriage, and my parents are the product of very beautiful Christian marriage. My grandparents on both sides stayed together until death separated them. Yes, I knew my great grandparents as well and we just buried the last living great grandparent, she was 100.
I have nine brothers, NOT ONE have criminal record. All are college educated, some have their own successful businesses. I have 18 uncles, NOT ONE has a criminal record. I have a clan of cousins NOT one has a criminal record. My parents are college educated. My father is a businessman and man of God.
The fact remains inner city blacks do not represent the black america. Yes, there are MANY who have overcame their situations and went on to do great things. But we all know the NAACP doesn’t speak for all blacks, they speak for uppity folks like my parents…. feel me?
Black women are marriageable and make excellent makes. If you want a sister from Morrocco or Brazil, at the end fo the day you still have a black woman. My only problem is when my black brothers do not defend his black sisters. But this is amusing, years ago white women were complaing about the Asian mail order brides takening their men which leads me to suspect men just want some a bit “exotic.” I digress.
Yahya,
You said:
“I had no choice but to look outside for a wife because I wanted no part getting with a sister that a couple of the same brothers within the salat line have jizzed into also at some point. Excuse my crudeness…”
I hope you hold you and your friends to the same level of expectations?
I dont know you brother, but there are A LOT of brothers out there that would say what you have said and ignore the FACT that there are 3-4 women in the salat line that they have known initmately themselves.
One of the largest problems in the Muslim community is the double standards and the high expectations of the morality of the women of the community, whereas the men are not held to the same standards. That is wrong and it is HARAM.
For the brothers out there looking for “clean women”, I suggest you examine yourself. If your past is not clean, then your demand for a clean woman is hypocrisy!
If you are looking to get married, yet you have slept with numerous women, past and present, then you have no right to look for a “clean woman” yourself. The “clean woman” deserves better than yourself. Take a look in the mirror.
Stop the hypocrisy and hold yourself to the same standards that you hold others.
True, the good women from both sides of the Atlantic are not spoken for in here, and the good brothers from both places are barely spoken for.
In Europe, there is no talking about a ‘problem’ of Dutch men not marrying Dutch women or Swedish men marrying Finnish women, nothing like that. But we got the truth revealed and recorded for us and all we do is debate about problems that don’t have a solution. I apologize because in trying to think of one I have only contribute to the negativity here, it’s not like I can cover all aspects without talking you all to death.
The issue is deen and dunya. Plain and simple, most times we’ll be tested with a choice between convenience in dunya and halal in the deen. Ghetto nigga culture and ghetto Moroccan culture put together with two quarters don’t add up to a 75 cents compared to Islam. We know right from wrong but we just choose wrong because it’s easy. But I see where the deen is lacking in here and in those conferences. No wonder there’s a problem! The NOI showed up like they’re Muslims, too. They’re not! If Farrakhan doesn’t declare shahada and make it clear he’s as Muslim as Siraj Wahhaj, the NOI is another religion and they belong at their own conferences. Even WD Muhammad has made statements of kufr in the 70s and 80s. He might have changed since then but his organization is still full of Baptists calling themselves Muslims! He might not have changed these beliefs and that would explain why they’re still so backwards where I live! Something’s seriously wrong mentally with Muslims because we got the answers in Islam but we take shahada and are still slaves to something else! With an Islam like this in America, it don’t matter who we marry or don’t marry or how we treat each other. Nothing else matters if we aren’t practicing this religion, and I can see that it can’t be practiced in this country. I know yall are gonna disagree because we’re ‘American Muslims’; like that’s something special! I ain’t saying somewhere else is better because I don’t know but I know this isn’t gonna work in this country. At the rate we’re going, no matter who we marry our descendants are not going to remain Muslim long. The only question is how long.
I think I see what the cause of the problem is now; America and TV.
“…Inside them are the powers of love and strength given by the Moon and the Earth…”
Strength given by the moon and earth?
No one gives strength but Allah.
Well said Abu Sinan!
As Salaamu Alaikum:
Margari commented upon the harsh treatment of Black women by some of the previous posters. In my posts, I tried to steer clear of putting anything on any one race of women or men. The issues which we were discussing happen to men and women in all walks of life and races. We were specifically speaking of things that are synonymous with SOME western Muslims and how instead of rectifying themselves people just twist the Deen to fit their desires while ignoring the real issues at hand.
This discussion really isn’t only about Moroccan women. Women are women and men are men. And marriage is marriage. Whether it is monogamy or polygyny it is still marriage and it has certain guidelines and implications and we need to be educated on what they are. We can all find examples for a plethora of things to prove points but at the end of the day anything that befalls us we have to look to what our own hands have created FIRST before blaming anyone else.
When I spoke, I was harder on the women in general than the men because we as Muslim women don’t have to be in situations that we sometimes find ourselves in. We have the power in regards to marriage yet we don’t use it properly. Allah gave us the right to choose whom we will marry and under what conditions. These men that we marry we are choosing them to control our affairs, father our children and share and increase in ‘ilm. Indeed this is a very heavy decision. The knowledge is the greatest solution to many of these marital problems. With it you can fight ignorance and clearly recognize it when it comes to you. We need to really understand what Allah intended for us in regards to marriage firstly without putting our own “interpretations” into play. Some people just won’t let go of their cultural baggage whether the baggage is from the inner city or the desert. People like this you just have to make du’a for them and leave them. Surely if they don’t make efforts to change their selves then Allah will not aid them. Allah designed marriage so that it is a protection for both parties involved and not as an oppression or degradation to each other.
I encourage the sisters, and the naseehah is for myself first, to look at what Allah has intended for us as wives (those who choose to be). We were not intended to be slaves or to be stuck in bad marriages that severely damage our Iman. Yes, we are all different and want different things. Yes, variety is good but we should not use our choices to oppress or degrade ourselves or others. A person can only do to you what you let them. Many sisters have been in less than wonderful relationships, however, in order to move on to that which is productive, we have to look at ourselves and rectify our affairs inshaAllah ta’ala. Men will be men. So what if a brother wants a woman who is not of his race? That just might be the best thing for him. He could try to fool himself that he can be married to a particular woman just to find out that he really should have made another decision. Then the sisters in these situations are left feeling jaded with children in tow. He should have just been real with himself and go for what he really wanted. Everyone would be happier that way, in my opinion.
After growing up in an area where many Black men were with White women, it is nothing to me for Black men to seek what they want and need from women who were not of their race. Many Black women were hurt by this but the ones who weren’t realized that at the end of the day they didn’t want those particular men anyway. So no matter what, they had to look for mates elsewhere anyway. There are good men out there of all races, including good Black men. We all need to ask Allah for what it is we need and we want. The success lies with Him alone.
Margari,
I just wanted to state that I’m married to an AA Muslima, and I LOVE my wife. I’m very happy. She’s smart, artistic, all that. From a big city.
She doesn’t work, she stays at home and takes care of our household and kids. She does a great job. My 4 year old is already able to read some Arabic.
My first choice in marriage is AA, mostly because that is me. But I would never knock a brother for choosing differently. Allah (SWT) allows that, so how could it be bad? (not directed at you….)
Bint Will:
I’m very familiar with PG County. I have friends who live in that area. It is also hosts the most affluent Black community in America. So its safe to say that PG county is an anomaly at the other extreme.
As a professional who did the Black fraternity thing in college, I’m well aware of the socio-economic condition of upper income African-Americans. I’m not alien to the dynamic at all. But the reality is that that represents a very small portion of the African American community. Simply because you were surrounded by that lifestyle does not make it the norm for the majority of African Americans.
Also, many of the brothers who are married from that class DO go to Brazil to get their freak on, and MANY have a woman on the side in the states as well. Things aren’t as rosy in PG County as you think. You don’t know what those brothers are doing when they get away from their wives and families. I have buddies of mine from college who are not Muslims living in that area. They paint a different picture than one of tranquil marital bliss.
Men are men regardless of color or class. The one thing I will say is that I do find African American Muslim brothers much less likely to just cheat on their wives, they may get a second wife, but going to Brazil on sex trips for Muslim brothers is NOT in the picture. And remember, if a brother can afford to go to Morocco to get a wife, he could easily afford a trip to Brazil to get his groove on. Muslim brothers don’t role that way. Regardless of the problems you may hear about, I find that African American Muslims exhibit more sexual integrity than Non Muslims. Allah knows best.
The problem is that we need to refer to the quran and the authentic sunnah.The Prophet sallaahu alaihi was salaam said marry for deen may your hands be coveredin dust.You find that these brothers who are marrying these moroocan women are not marrying them for their deen but they are marrying for reasons other than this.You often find that alot of those moroocan women are not very religious, they just like that they can speak arabic.I know of a sister who is american and her cowife is moroocan(secind wife) doesn’t cover and the husband actually preferred this.He asked the first wife to do this but she refused.Needless to say the moroocan wife is his favorite. From what I see in my community i find that the AA sisters(reverts) are more religious.They are eager to learn,they memorize quran, they teach their children Islam, and try to make Hijra some do it by themselves.But these brothers don’tlook to these women for marriage. I will say this the brothers I do see marrying moroocan women they are either the only wife or the second wife because they do not go for their husbands taking another wife.They wont have it and even on top of that brothers still marry them.
For the most part, Christians are not encumbered with all of the hang-ups seen on the page here. We keep it simple.
Husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. Wives are to reverence their husbands.
Men need respect, women need love. These are two benchmarks of Christian marriage for those who take it to heart and make it work.
And if you believe the Hadith that marriage fulfills half your religion, that should be sufficient at the starting gate for you. smile
Tammy
Mann ohh mann this is a can full of worms we have here. We have some self hate issues, some skin color issues, some good hair issues, some inferiority issues mixed up with some social economic problems. It’s hard out there for most AA sisters. The last guy I discussed marriage with mentioned that he might just go to Morocco to find a “malleable” sister. It’s hard to find that other half in general, but if you are an African American sister, it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack. You can be the most religious, educated, attractive, sincere sister in the masjid and if you are African American, you will be the last person someone will consider for marriage. It’s just sad, but true. I am just an average gal with a degree and some sense of deen who wants the same in a brother (and I am even open to ethnicity) and it’s like fighting a loosing battle. I have even had to ask myself am I being unrealistic? I don’t think I am at fault by having reasonable expectations of my potential spouse. Somehow it seems like we have lost our “common sense” when it comes to marriage (getting married and having the skill set to deal with the challenges that marriage comes with).
I am in my original marriage and had no “starter marriage”. My husband loves me and tells me I am beautiful every day. It doesn’t get any better than that. smile Marriage takes work, commitment, and dare I say it? Abiding love. No wonder Osama bin Ladin has all his wires crossed. The man was the son of his father’s 11th wife. That would make me neurotic too.
Tammy
-I find that African American Muslims exhibit more sexual integrity than Non Muslims. Allah knows best.-
Unfortunately, I can’t agree with that. African American brothers front like the most religion and “sunnified” in the world and for the most part have the most problems. I know many sisters who have been out right cheated on by their husbands. You didn’t that Af Am Muslim men out there selling and vending and sleeping with non Muslims on Thursdays and bringing them to the masajid on Fridays to marry “halal” as their second wives? I think half of all the Af Am Muslim brothers’ polygynous marriages starts from the haram because most lack any self type of sexual self control. And this is why polygyny has not worked in the Af. Am Muslim communities and Muslim children created from those marriages, by and large but especially the girls, run away from Islam. When things don’t start off Islamically, they’ll end that way either.
There so many issues amongst the Muslims, but especially Af Am Muslims. There is a lack of respect, genuine love and honor all the way around. Sisters need not bother with the majority of these brothers. Let them go to Morroco. Let them put those sisters under their tranny, let them have all the babies and live on a shoestring budget. It really is time for sisters to try something new.
Something “new” would be to have premarital counseling as to compatability of goals for the marriage. This could surely be done under the guidance of the imam with supportive families. Does the man believe all his children should be educated? If he is against education for his daughters, then in my mind, he is functioning from the age of ignorance, in which Arab men buried their infant daughters. It is just as easy to bury them alive by denying them the right to learn to read and write their own name with their own hand. Either you believe all people are created equally, as the teeth in a comb, or discard the Hadith. Education of women is not bi’dah.
Sure, the man is the bed owner. But is the bed owner willing to lend a hand in (gasp) cleaning up the kitchen every now and then and taking the children on an outing, so that he is not taking an exhausted wife into the bedroom every night?
Conversely, is the woman willing to sacrifice if necessary some of her own dreams for the aspirations of the husband, if it means a better standard of living for the family over a lifetime?
Much to consider. None of us like change. Some of the tribal structures within Morocco, Pakistan and Afghanistan will barely change due to the need for cohesive community structure to survive the harsh terrain and living conditions. We cannot hold too high expectations for such regions, in my mind because the microcosmic view of family is tied to the soil and the livestock which sustain their very existence.
Tammy
Musleema,
I find your comments illogical and bordering on downright ignorant. As usual, what has the potential to be a fruitful discussion, turns into an all out attack on African American Muslim brothers. It’s bogus and I think that you need to some talking as if you know EVERYTHING about what goes on in African American families or the intentions of brothers. Your argument is blatantly racist and I am offended by how you talk about African American Muslims. Brothers and sisters. But I am not shocked because you’ve done this before…
It is almost like people are waiting with baited breath to seize on any discussion to prove what they already have decided. No dialogue. No let’s think differently. With the type of logic that we have here there seems to be little hope. I really hope that you stop this type of bashing and check yourself. It’s wrong, disingenious and blatantly ill-informed.
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Assalamu alaikum, I think one way to solving these problems is to put Allah and Deen/Islam first. And while that is well, “obvious” that should be the starting point! I don’t know why anyone would *not* marry African-American women, just because, well, because they’re who they are.
I just find that to be sad, that someone would go all the way to Morocco, to get some sort of “fantasy wife”, that is just sad to me! But I wonder if this goes back to the “living in a bubble” scenario that I’ve seen Umar talk about before, I wonder if that’s just a further extension of that. It’s liek if you’re wife, or the pool of prosecptive wives, isn’t living up to your fantasy definition of what you think a wife should be to you, then you just don;t consider htem?
I don’t think marrying outside of your race/group is altogehter wrong, but if the reasons someone is doing it are because of some wrongly preconceived notions about the other group you’re trying to marry, and your group too, then that is wrong.
There are just a lot of issues at work here, it’s not just one thing, and I can’t even say that I can even start to have all of the answers, except to say put Allah, and Islam, first and the rest will follow, Inshallah.
I find some of the brothers (can’t remember their little usernames right now), comments just ignorant and extremely crude! Despite what may be happening in a lot of the US today, many, many Christians are not “living together before they get married” “sleeping around”, etc., etc. Perhaps all of us should try to check our stereotypes at the door. Also, the comment made about “not wanting to get with a sister who someone else has been with”, whatever, so it’s already for you to be “not clean” but want your wife to be a virgin? Whatever, the hypocrisy of some of the men on here, and their crudeness, is just revolting and disgusting to me!
Abu Sinan,
Maybe you misunderstood something in my post. I would agree with your rant about hypocrisy, but you’re falsely prejudging. I’ve only been married once, and that is to my CURRENT WIFE. Spent too much time working and studying to keep a revolving door of wives.
You should hold yourself to the standard that you’re talking about.But for myself…. I don’t believe in serial marriages, but thanks for projecting that image on me anyway. Where is this coming from anyway? I’m sure that if I were a serial marriage monger/wannabe muslim pimp, then I wouldn’t have any true input into,nor care about this discussion.
As Salaamu Alaikum:
Samira:
I totally agree that some of Musleema’s comments were very rude and coarse but trying to put “the best” perspective on what the sister is saying I can see that she is disgusted and disillusioned. Many, many Muslim women of color, not just Black, not just Hispanic or Asian, feel the same way about certain men of certain races. Their ill feelings maybe about men of their own race as a matter of fact. I know several Latin Muslim women who would NEVER marry a Latin man. But that is neither here nor there. You are right, the point of posts such as this one and even some of the ones on her own blog were “supposed to” be for dialog to solve a problem not to create additional ones. And yes, it does create additional problems because there are some Black men out there who don’t want to be married to an Arab. They may approach a Black woman for marriage and be turned down flatly, although he is good, because of the perpetuation of stereotypes which creates fear and distrust amongst the Muslims.
I have known sisters like this; sisters who wouldn’t marry a Black man if their lives depended on it although they have some “African roots” themselves. However, now they have overcome the stereotypes that were applicable to them and married Arab or Asian men themselves. I say this because it is a KNOWN fact that Black women or women with some kind of African roots have problems marrying Arabs and Asians. But Alhamdullilah, they have overcome those stereotypes and married one of those races of men. Some of those marriages work and some do not. Some of those Asian or Arab brothers treat those sisters well and some of them treat them like garbage. Just like all marriages out there. Wallahi, it isn’t the race that makes or breaks a relationship it is the people behind them. There isn’t any one race of men or women that are perfect on all levels and it never will be.
The sister has obviously seen so much filth come out of relationships concerning Black men that she can’t see anything else nor does she want that for herself. It is hard to see your sisters in Islaam continually making bad choices and suffering due to them. Those feelings can make one feel totally disgusted and it is hard to get past it. That’s fine, but I think we all know that all Black men are not bad and fit into those filthy stereotypes. Just like not all Arab women are submissive nor are all Asian men short nor are all Arab men hot tempered wife beaters.
Yes many of us are angry at how SOME MUSLIMS act. Yet Islaamically we cannot totally disband the honor of the Muslims. This is something that is sacred and if we don’t have something good (or constructive) to say then we should be quite. Again, I didn’t say it our Prophet said it, sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam. That naseehah is not just for one person it is for all of us, myself included firstly.
Yes, there is much stereotyping here. Especially with the assumptions that ALL brothers are sexually promiscuous. That is just as absurd.
Also, it seems to be a sport to bash AA men here. Afterall, this is how this whole discussion thread started. Just as AA women shouldn’t be painted with a broad brush neither AA men.
The racists that read these forums must get a kick out of the potshots that AA’s take at each other.
ASA,
There is no doubt that Blackamericans still suffer from psychological scars of slavery. Taking shahadah didn’t automatically heal those wounds.
So yes, we put deen first, but we also need to have a healthy appreciation for our human expression and culture like other people.
It’s my opinion that we need to go back and reread “Community of Self” and “Breaking the Psychological Chains of Slavery” by Dr. Na’im Akbar (Akbar’s books prior to his ultra-Afrocentric stage).
Samira, I am glad that you are not shocked because I have no intentions of stopping. Allah has commanded us to speak out against rebellion to what He and His messenger saas commanded and if you have a problem with a Muslim doing that than the feelings are mutual, Im offended. That racist comment you made is rolling down my jilbab as I type this. If you can’t deferentiate between the small cancerous group of Af. Am Muslims that are a real problem from the rest of the Af. Am. Muslims with adab and akhlaq who are themselves fed up with the others(as Umar relayed from attending the MANA conference), I think that speak volumes about you moreso than me.
It’s unfortunate that any time Muslims criticizes the problems that are affecting the whole of the ummah others rush to silence them and the defend those who don’t even deserve defending. That in itself is a travesty.
And speaking of first hand sister, let me tell you what I know, I know I’d fed up for my sisters who I love for the sake of Allaah alone, those who are bonded to me by the shahadah being abused, misused, oppressed and preyed on by the very men that Allaah has decreed they come through, receive comfort and love from and shelter and protection from. It’s digusting and I am digusted by any Muslim man who doesn’t have enough decency and common sense and fear of His Lord to love, honor and protect the very woman entrusted to him, whether she is Af. Am or Morrocan. It’s sick and they are sick people samira.
If you noticed I didn’t even comment on the Morrocan fixation. I don’t have a problem with preferences. If black Muslim men want Morrocan women, let them go for it. I say to those Af Am sisters that are concerned with it, you can’t loose something you never had. What is the bigger issue here is figuring out how and where the disconnect between Af Am. Muslim women and men has occured and how can the rest of us Muslims support and help foster its healing. Though, I’ll be honest, I believe more Af Am sisters have to wise up and set higher standards for their marriages by marrying Muslim men from other countries.
So far I agree with all Musleemah said, including “I believe more Af Am sisters have to wise up and set higher standards for their marriages by marrying Muslim men from other countries.”
But, see? That implies Muslim brothers from abroad meet higher standards than Af Am Muslims here. Well, a lot of times it’s true and alot of times it’s false. But the same holds true for sisters here, they sometimes far outshine the foreign Muslim sisters and other times they trifle with the deen. But why is what Musleemah said so powerful? Simple, when lack men have to compete with foreign brothers to marry one of their own, they’ll shape up if they hadn’t already.
I’m gonna be frank, alot of this seems to be a ghetto problem. I didn’t come up ghetto, though, and I didn’t come into Islam through no ghetto masjid or in prison or a county jail. I came in after graduating from college and living with Muslim roommates from the Arab world and Africa who were educated. But I’m one of the few African American men to enter Islam through this route. I’m not at all by myself in my outlook on education and morality in this deen, though. Now on the flipside I can tell yall with a surety that many (not all) African Americans with both education and money are not going to accept Islam. Educated ones are likely to accept and excel in it. But educated ones who are also successful materially just don’t want to accept it for themselves. Partly because it means no more sex trips to Brazil. No more drinking to unwind. I hate to say it, but I see it with my own two eyes. I accepted, and not one relative of mine will accept it. But this guy I know with a real rough upbringing accepted Islam. Then his brother accepted it. Then his mom went from having strange men over all the time to Islam with hijab in ONE WEEK! But if Islam is only for the poor like we think, where will new Muslims have to go to except that same environment of poverty and dysfunction? No where! So this problem will continue or just be replaced by another one.
Musleema,
You ain’t saying nothing new. Of course, you’re going to somehow say that Allah has commanded you to do this or that because that gives you a reason to continue your offensive behavior without sincere reflection. As I said before I hope you check yourself on your stereotyping and bashing of African-American Muslims.
When you blatantly stereotype a whole group based on your limited experience that’s racist. It can roll down your jilbab all day long but it is what it is. Please read the comments of others who have said the same thing about your statements and don’t just focus on me. I wish you the best but I don’t agree with you on this. Peace.
Morocco is the answer to the western man…Why not go and get a woman who knows arabic and the various slangs,can write read and write arabic…..can recite the quran in haafs and warshhh….is obediant,sows,cooks and cleans doesnt complain much,covers properly,isnt sitting home complaining about having the latest fashions,will have as many children as they can(it’s the sunnah to multiply ya haters) hasnt had multiple sex partners(virgins mashaallah) knows nothing about sex …..hasnt been married 15 or 20 times, Hate all you want. study your deen ,practice your deeen . Then maybe we wont have to travel. Doweries are cheap over there too…It aint just happening in Morocco it’s going down in Jordan,syria,yemen,lebanon,and in other non-arab places too like Pakistan and turkey and as far as iran…black suunee-salafee men marrying arab women mashaallah. ……This is what has been narrated by black suunee men who have married arab women………..
I’m starting to question the benefit of discussing issues that are beyond simple solution in these types of forums. It seems to do nothing but start fitna and cause disgruntled Muslims to do nothing but backbite the whole umma.
wow, Tammy just came in here and dropped science!
id just like to say that what you have said is true in most cases, and id also like tosay im a proud mixed race muslim sister my mother being morrocan and father afro carribean alhamdulilah. id just like to say that iv often felt the need to want to marry arab meen just of the mere fact the most black brothers want to get married to arab or asian women, i dont see nothing wrong with them wanting to do it but inly when they dislike the fact of not wanting to marry black women thats really hurtfull. you’v also made me think twice about the dowry issue-it’s so true most reverts do tend to opt for a lesser dowry which is in a way degrading for muslim sisters in light of this i think i will think twice before submitting my dowry and know that im worth alot more than what these brothers think we are.ALL YOU SISTERS OUT THERE DONT OPT FOR SECOND BEST REMEMBER WERE ONLY ALLOWED ONE HUSBAND!so get it right inshallah
Yahya,
I suggest you re-read my post. I did not point to you, I was making a point in general. Some work on reading comprehension might be in order.
If you took it as a slam against yourself, that is your issue, not mine, as I did not write about you, rather simply addressed the point you made.
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Abu Sinan,
That’s a crock man. You made the assumption that in fact I am one those serial marriage type of guys and now you try to change it. Your message was general, but directed at me also.
You tried to make assumptions without any fact or basis. Reading comprehension??? You wouldn’t have written a defensive response if I wasn’t on point at least a little. Quite the contrary, I can read you very well in between the lines. Smart comments prove what exactly?
Nah, bro….I don’t have an issue with anything cause as you’ve said before….you don’t know me. And it’s not even that serious.
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Wow..what a truly phenomenal discussion. Im a black sister but Im not african american. I was married to an AA at the age of 19 and living in the US….have been surrounded by AA muslims and I have to say for me…what is true for me is I Just dont get it.
I dont get why there are such levels of dysfunction among people that were so oppressed in the first instance.
I dont get why some brothers justify marrying women of other cultures when in realty they dont have a handle on their own religious, moral and social inadequacies.
How are you going to *cop a queen from the motherland*when you havent even managed to work out how to be a King yourself.
I find it this kind of behavior sociopathic in nature..but dont worry sisters…..a deadbeat , dud husband is going to continue to be a dead beat flunky husband with someone else and no matter how green the grass looks from your side…a lot of times its an illusion.
I know African Queens who got dumped and left just like their western counterpoints.
I wouldnt marry an African American brother again because emotionally Im just not feeling them anymore.
I know this much…if a brother cant do what Im doing and increase my blessings then Im going to stay single. I did the sacrifice it all for Ajar role and it sucked.
Maybe lll marry an arab brother. They seem to smile at me a lot.
Wsalaam
Yahya,
That is your assumption, not mine. If you look at the responses to what I said, I dont think anyone else took it the way you did either.
My point was about the double standards. I didnt point to you, I dont know you from Adam. However, you might have wanted to make the same point about the males in the line. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Maybe it was an ommision on your part? Why just point out the women without noting that many men are guilty of the same thing?
The sad fact is, many brothers indeed think it is okay for them to mess around, but not for the sisters. The deen teaches us that this is incorrect.
I wasnt defensive. Why would I, as a male, be defensive about your assertions about the morality of some of the sisters? I was simply pointing out to you that the rules, thus the judgement, is the same for brothers as it is for sisters.
The double standards that sisters are held to be many is a serious issue and one that should not be side stepped or ignored.
Lets take a look at what you wrote:
” I had no choice but to look outside for a wife because I wanted no part getting with a sister that a couple of the same brothers within the salat line have jizzed into also at some point. Excuse my crudeness……”
Aside from the crude language, you made a point about not wanting a wife that had already had multiple partners. That is why you had to look abroad.
My point was that many, if not more sisters, could say the same thing. I wont use your language, but how many sisters in that Salat line, or reading this blog could write:
“I had no choice but to look outside for a husband because I wanted no part getting with a brother that a couple of the same sisters within the salat line have been intimate with at some point.”
Heck, they could have added “and wont be able to support me or any children we might have because he already has half a dozen children being watched in the free child care offered in the moque”!
Any hurt feelings you have are your issues. No one here, besides yourself, took it as an attack on you. Sounds like you have a sore spot.
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I hope this doesn’t violate blog adaab, but i am going to attempt to write a series of posts in response to what is here.
I read most of these posts last night, and it left me feeling disturbed for a variety of reasons that i am striving to put my finger on. This morning i began writing in my journal about what is happening with African-Americans and marriage.
First of all, this thread, in many ways mirrors a debate i am having on a mainstream African-American website about marriage, black men, and globalism. The problems that black Americans face in regards to marriage are multi-tiered.
A large part of the problem stems from the vestiges of the slave culture. The black family was broken during slavery, and then “put together” at the interests of the slave holders. The black family was never designed to work. This is all part of the “Willie Lynch Syndrome” that black folks suffer from (although it is said that the letter is apocryphal, those methods were certainly employed throughout slave era America–and after). Black folks worked with what they had under that system, but the odds were stacked against them. After slavery, there was the terrorism of white racists and the Jim Crow apartheid system. Many African-Americans as a result migrated to the Northern slums (to escape lynching and seek industrial jobs).
The South had its problems–but so did the North. This “Great Migration” put black people in crowded vice ridden slums, and this was about the worse place for a people who were sought stability and sought to recover from several hundred years of brutal dehumanization. The Migration was the beginning of what we could call the “ghetto culture” of black America (think: Malcolm X in Boston and later Harlem, NY).
The next thing big development for (urban) black America was the rise of the welfare state and the loss of the manufacturing base. In the case of many struggling working poor black families–or at least black men with children trying to raise them–the black man was forced out of the homes, so that the women could get marginal government support in the form, most importantly of healthcare and food stamps for the children.
At around this time, or a little later, many manufacturing jobs either were outsourced or shut down altogether. Thirty-five years ago, a man with high school diploma could get out of school and get a job over at the factory and make off the bat according to today’s equivalent of $18 p/hr along with plenty of benefits (certainly health insurance), and the potential of making $20-25 or more an hour in just a few years of hard work. This enabled a man to marry his high school sweetheart–right out of highschool–and start a family.
Nowadays, perhaps outside of a few government jobs, where is a high school grad going to find a large scale employer offering fulltime work for $15 an hour and benefits? And if he can find such a job, he knows that it is always in jeopardy of being outsourced. Nowadays, most high school grads in much of the country, would be lucky to find a job that might pay $10 an hour. Honestly, on such an income, how is a yong man going to be able to raise a family?
Lastly, what has been said so far all refers to the B.C. Era (i.e. Before Crack). Crack has devestated many of the inner cities–and this is where MANY African-American converts come from. Crack has totally changed the dynamics of black male-female relationships altogether. For example in the city of Baltimore a few years ago, 60% of young African-American males were either in jail on probation or parole. The numbers in Philadelphia are around 40%. Other large–or not so large but “has been” industrial–cities in the Northeast have similar figures. Now, you are looking at an entire generation of African-Americans born (and perhaps subsequently converted) since the early 80′s, who have grown up in an environment where the crack economy and its subsidiary businesses (e.g., prostitution and theft) have been the norm. They cannot imagine a world without thievery, mayhem, and murder. Throw hip hop (mainstream stuff) that glorifies such a culture into the picture, and you get all sorts of family fallout in the African-American Muslim community.
[TO BE CONTINUED, GOD-WILLING]
bismillah
as salaaumalikum
1 more thing – these ppl who you know who try to get married to a kafir in tight jeans or do other off the wall things arent to be considered. everyone knows ppl from every community who are just out of it. these are ppl with problems and arent to be considered as a representive of any group ecxept an AA ( not african american) group or 12-step program.
abu sinan,
Well my language was crude, but hey I was at work when I wrote that and it reflected my day…..
Actually I personally have no issues with you, and in fact Im very happy celebrating the birth of my first son. No hurt feelings here man.
The thing that I had issues with in this article is people criticizing black American men for choosing outside thier race. No place in Islam is it said that we must stick to our own race. Also, I most certainly wasnt going to sit around waiting for Miss African American right to come along. Also, nobody gets more heat than the AA men do when it comes to IR marriges. Nonethless free speech allows for a variety of opinions so I suppose this matter is no different.
To clarify my original point: Yes its just as bad if not more so when men wrecklessly do serial nikah. Guess I forgot to include that. Of course it is haram…….
Yahya,
Congratulations on the birth of your baby. I have a 19th month old and 29 month old boy.
As a white guy married to an Arab myself, I have no issues with inter-racial marriages. I guess it all depends on why someone chooses to marry outside of their race.
Sometimes it is for reasons that are based on misconceptions and outright falsehoods.
As a white convert I was very clear in wanting to marry an Arab woman because I like most of Arab culture and I wanted to marry someone who could help me with my Arabic. It is for that last reason that I probably wouldnt have married a Morrocan lady. Maghrebi Arabic speakers have dialects that are not that useful for mainstream conversational or Qur’an Arabic.
I’ll admit that my interest in Arabic women was for looks as well.
I’m starting to question the benefit of discussing issues that are beyond simple solution in these types of forums. It seems to do nothing but start fitna and cause disgruntled Muslims to do nothing but backbite the whole umma.
Ditto. You all made me glad I live in Nassau when I read this, and the Bahamas aren’t a Muslim country by any stretch of the imagination.
Yahya,
Congrats on your son. Regarding your statement, “Also, nobody gets more heat than the AA men do when it comes to IR marriges.” This is a common misperception. The problem lies in the FEW black men who marry/date outside the race and insult their black sisters. I have no issue with a brother or sister marrying another, I wouldn’t be here if my parents didn’t, because dad is Native American and mom is black. I DO have problems with black men who say, “I don’t date/marry black women because blah blah blah…” Black men are not my preference, but I’ll never disrespect any of them NOR ALLOW anyone to disrespect them.
As a black woman who has never been married to a black man, nor dated one we get just as much heat. My black cousin once told me, (and I’ve heard this from several black men) that no decent black man would ever want me because I was married to a nonblack man, therefore tainted.
Sorry white converts, blacks are considered race traitors as well for converting. The old says goes, “we trade our European slave masters names for the Arab slavemaster’s name.”Which is true since there’s no such thing as a Muslim name.
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what is up with all the anti Moroccan talk people?
this is really offensive and it makes gross generalizations about Moroccans
Moroccan darija is not arabic?
I actually read a thesis, I wish I could show it to you guys proving that Moroccan darija is CLOSER to fus7a than Levant arabic !!
and the more mainstream does NOT mean the more fus7a like
egyptian is the most mainstream but the dialect closest to fus7a is jordanian and some bedouin tribes in the arabian peninsula
if moroccans were all over tv like egyptians are, everyone would understand moroccan too!!
i also know many moroccan lebanese marriages where the lebanese partner picked up darija immediately and can speak it great!!
btw the amount of berber in moroccan darija is actually negligible fyi
that’s a misconception
french yes, berber no
ughh
also a Moroccan woman is just as capable of teaching someone quranic arabic (if shes literate) as any other arab women
the scary thing you guys are implying is that a non-moroccan woman by definition would be able to know or teach fis7a better
“that is so gross i dont even know what to say that
many moroccans that finish high school nowadays have excellent fus7a just because they speak broken arabic at home doesn’t mean a thing they still have full quranic comprehension
what is wrong with you people?
oh dont marry a moroccan woman to learn arabic”…that is so offensive and racist
no matter how ghetto the slang is, a literate Moroccan has very good arabic (like fus7a)
and other arabs are not inherently better at it
many of the fus7a tutors available for arabic students in my area are moroccan …
i cant believe the anti moroccanness of other arabs has penetrated the rest of american muslims
Sancro sanct . May Allah reward you and other sisters. As I stated in previous posts that this topic is disturbing sisters and hurting them. No benefit at all. Generalizing Moroccan women. Moroccan women are the foremost where I live at when it comes to teaching the arabic language. I have sent my wife to them to learn and benefit. The Morocccan arabic slang contains alot of old,classical fusha which you find in the Quraan. If you stopped and asked the average arab he wouldnt even know it. It a shame that such topics turn into scandalous speech and only hurt races and alienate other people because their men from their race have looked elsewhere for marriage. A person prefrence shouldnt be anyone elses business. The prophet said: From the perfection of a person’s islam is abstaining from what does not concern him(tirmidhee and al muwaata) I guess the white sisters should start a forum “why white muslim males are interested in marrying black sisters and not white sisters” Does it make us mad when we see a black male with a white sister? This issue is deeper then Moorocan women. If this is what blogging is about, like exploiting personal affairs and airing dirty laundry then I guess it isnt for me. I dont see the benefit in angering my fellow brothers and sisters in islam. We might be invoking the anger of Allah and dua against us.
Sacrosant,
Just to clear things up. I am not anti-Moroccan. I know this is a sore spot, cause I feel the same pain similar negative sweeping statements about Black women. I guess you can join the club of women who get bashed.
“Sad, I know some amazing Moroccan women. But because they are not represented in this conversation, few people are speaking up for them. The real issue is not about these women in vulnerable positions and struggling with dire poverty.”
There are Moroccan women who go to college and numbers of them make it to the states. I don’t think Umar believes that all Moroccan women are illiterate and peasants. He’s just calling out all the brothers that have rejected Black women for an ideal of docile Arab women. He is attacking these misconceptions.
I am not implying that all Moroccan women are illiterate. I myself know of literate and educated Moroccan who teach Arabic. But I do know brothers who have married Moroccan women who came from poor families and cannot read or write Arabic. These women got stuck in bad situations. I know other brothers who are married to Moroccan women who are educated and come from scholarly families. So, they know fushah.
But as far as Arabic dialects go, the Morccan dialect is not the best for learning Quran. I think linguists and students of languages would say the same thing. The strength that Moroccans have is dysglossia and their ability to code switch between Moroccan dialect, French and Fushah. As for when I was in Morocco, many Moroccans were more comfortable speaking in French than they were in Fushah. And there were places where people didn’t even speak Moroccan Arabic at all, but a Berber language. I don’t think you’d get Saharan people defending the usefulness of Hasaniyya. There are many great Mauritania scholars who can teach Arabic grammar and morphology. But I really doubt that they would claim that a woman speaking only Hassaniya and unable to read or write in either modern standard Arabic or classical Arabic could teach their children Qur’an.
As for I’d say the same thing about Egyptian too. But its not like lots of brothers have been successful going to Egyptian villages and pulling village girls. Many of my Egyptian-American friends can understand Egyptian from their parents and going back home frequently. But they still struggle to read and understand Qur’an. I’d still assert that Sudanese and Yemeni are more helpful. I think the Sudanese Arabic is probably solid because of the education reforms starting in the 19th century with Egyptian scholars spreading Arabic language classes and with modern reforms under the British. Arabic was heavily promoted and is used in schools as a means of instruction. Even listen to the interviews of the Darfurian people, and their Darfurian Arabic is still comprehensible. When I went to Morocco, it took me about a month to understand basic conversation. My second time going with advanced level Fushah conversation I did have a hard time having a conversation with people who had not finished school and gone on to college.
I guess some people like the idea of a personal tutor in Arabic. They don’t want to sit in classes. I don’t doubt their conversational abilities. Maybe people’s emphasis is less on reading religious text, and more on being able to communicate with Arabs. But I don’t know if simply a marriage to an Arab will be the most efficient way to learn how to read a classical Arabic text. I mean, you can always switch tutors, but a spouse is a lot harder.
I find it interesting. A few years ago, one African American brother who was on a forum announced he was getting engaged. He mentioned his wife’s ethnicity. “I’m getting married to a Moroccan.” I kept thinking why did he put that in his announcement? Did it really matter what was her ethnicity? Should we give him extra praises? Was she an extra special catch? If he was getting married to an African American woman, would he have mentioned her ethnicity. Or if a Moroccan man was getting married to an African America, would he say the same thing. Or would he preface it like, “I’m getting married to an American. She is Black BUT pretty and smart NOT ghetto and loud.” I don’t know of many cases where Moroccans in the states marry into Black families. I just wonder how many Moroccan American dads would let their daughters marry a brother that converted 2 days ago from the ex-con masjid.
Ultimate, this entry is about critiquing misconcpetions about the other and about self-hatred and an inferiority complex that is contributing to the large numbers of African American Muslim women without suitable partners. It is unfortunate that in order to combat the misconceptions about the exotic other, that you feel attacked. I hope you don’t take it that way.
As was ststed before: whos business is it who somebody marries? All I can see here is haterism against Morocccan women and even the language. Nonetheless the goal of this article and others are to say : Moroccan women arent all that so you niggers will have to do better.
Basically it is saying that brothers who get wives from Morocco are digging from the bottle of the barrel. Pure arrogance and haterade if you ask me.
For all of the single AA sisters who pretend that there are no men available… I would suggest that they explore all options. No need to be loyal to just AA men if you dont get it back. Also I would suggest to stop playing the victim role. Marry who you want………
What is this thing about self hatred? Completely laughable at best and nothing more than a shaming tactic. Just because someone marries outside thier race it doesnt mean that they hate themselves. My son is a product of an interracial union. My son is still black because I am als
Unfortuntely the black family in America is in shambles and Ill say that ghetto culture and the hook up/baby momma/baby daddy culture does not help to stabilize families. Many AAs bring these attitudes with them to Islam…. which would help to at least partially explain the high incidence of serial/ stranger marriges in the AA muslim community. This is not just the fault of AA women. AA men need to get it together and take care of thier responsibilities and stop blaming thier failures in life on everyone else and the system. AA women simply need to make better choices in men because if a sister marries a man who was known to be a jailbird or other looser that had to learn about islam in jail, then rest assured that he is probably the same looser and will not change. If a AA woman has to marry outside her race because all of her proposals come from jailbirds with several baby mamas then she is free to do that without shame.
Finally, when there are good AA men and AA women then it appears that they always have a problem meeting each other. With all that said, most AA men still marry black as Bint Will has stated.
I thank you all for the congratulations.
For Moroccan Arabic I will say that it is still Arabic. And yes,most Moroccans I know have no trouble with Fusha. Moroccan has a lot of loan words from French, berber languages, and old Arabic.
Yahya,
I’m not hating on Moroccan women or the language. That’s just an emotional reaction to what you feel is like a personal attack. It’s not. Nor is it an attack on your right to choose. I really don’t care who you marry or what your preferences are. Don’t simplify things. At first, I used to celebrate these matches as hope that our Ummah was open minded. Then, I started seeing all the anti-Black women and sexist sentiment behind the growing popularity.
We’re critiquing the faulty reasoning and weak justifications. Maybe you know some great Fushah speaking Moroccans. Sure, you can take almost any fushah trilateral root and conjugate it using Moroccan grammar. But we’re saying that a Moroccan village girl who had to skip out on school to work or because her parents couldn’t afford school uniforms, books, and pens probably can’t help you read Qur’an. I also know Moroccans who went to American schools all their lives, are fluent in French, speak Moroccan Arabic, but are uncomfortable with Fushah.
Are you implying that Black women should go to Morocco in droves to marry men that only want to marry them to get greencards? That will solve the problem? There are many more complications for us marrying someone who doesn’t understand American culture or has very different notions of masculinity and femininity. Some of these men come from cultures where it is okay to beat down your wife.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37690
Some men come from cultures where men and women live in different spheres and husband and wife don’t interact except for the occassional times they get down and try to increase the ummah.
If you sift through the comments, you will find that people damn Black women if they do and damn them if they don’t. There is either the portrayal that Black women are ghetto and undesirable. But there is also a negative depiction of working class and Middle class sisters who work for a living because they either have to or want to contribute. I find that in integrated areas Black men tend to have the most negative views of Black women, views they often share with their non-Black peers. So, some of these brothers are implicit in spreading negative stereotypes and therefore my continual oppression.
I am sure the next issue the imams will address is the fact that many Muslim men in America don’t marry Muslim women at all. They have many excuses for why Muslim women suck. Or their relationships are under the auspices of da’wa.
Maggot aziz hill….I would firstly say if that is you in the picture….then you should fear allah!!!!!! for having no hijab…and displaying your beauty ….Which Allah has forbidden(haraaam)……The posts were reflecting the women of piety and knowledge of arabic nothing else….What some are comfortable with is another issue and there are many women who have memorised the quran and have phd’s and master’s degree in arabic there….Maybe you were at a fashion show or something……The beard shaving soofee goons like hamzta usuless and Anworped muhaymen can tell you they all studied in Morocco…you dont think they were taught in french or chinese?????/ Do ya? ….I see you are highly misinformed…”Ajrumiyah” is one most well know books of grammar in islam…Which all students of knowledge have studied which came from Morocco “Ibn ajrum” Who was moroccan….Beat down your wife you say and greencards…well your a bit stereotypical arent ya????… and what are black muslim men known for ???? 4 wives all of them on welfare and multiple children and worse??? Yeah black women should go to morocco…….Who cares about american culture or arab culture practice the religion of islam that what we have in common ok.!!!!Black men and women aide their to sterotypes just like arabs and other races do…..When your ready to practice the religion then all the stereotypes will change Insha-alah……..Unlissted2007…..Why would a knowledgable Imam or scholar address a person’s personal choice in marriage definately he wouldnt be worth listening to!!!!!!!!!…….Unlissted2007
Margi
Im not here to get into a pissing match and I enjoy the commentary. Ill tone down my rhetoric.
As I have said before….ghetto culture has come to be representative of African American culture, and this is a big part of the problem with AA relationships. I would just tell the good sisters to go whoever makes them happy in a halal way
Margari,
You are spot on in regards to the language thing. No one claimed that the Morrocan Arabic dialect is not Arabic. It is just far away from MSA and spoken dialects in the rest of the Arab speaking world.
For linguists or travelers out there I would say Morrocan Arabic is to standard Arabic Ulster Scots is to both English and standard Scots Gaelic.
Whilst it is Arabic, it is so far removed from standard Arabic to make it rather hard to comprehend to people outside of the Maghreb. The influences of Berber and French have changed the language so much that knowing Morrocan Arabic will aid you little in conversation with other Arabic speakers or with The Qur’an.
This is not to sat that Morrocans cannot learn MSA/Fus7a in school, but it is clear that if they do not have a background of Arabic in the educational system, their language skills outside the Maghreb will be lacking.
I am with Magari in her opinion of Sudanese Arabic, and would add Hijazi Arabic as well.
Yahya,
I appreciate it. I’m not into pissing matches. I keep responding because I tend to go out of my way to explain my views. I put a lot of thought into my opinions and I work hard to be understood.
I don’t think any of the people here are telling Black women to only stick with Black men. Nor are we telling Black men to only be with Black women. In an ideal world, things wouldn’t matter. We’d all be Muslim and sing Kumbaya together.
From my experience, I know a number of beautiful Black women, who are educated and pious, who have tried to keep an open mind by not excluding men who are not black, but are still not married. Why? Because of a number of factors. This is one of the factors.
I’m not saying that all women who marry immigrants are subject to abuse. But seriously, when you travel abroad, that’s the thing you have to be real careful about. That greencard makes you look real good. Some of the women I know have had conversations with immigrant men (Arab, African, and South Asian), but often these relationships don’t work out. Some men have pursued them for their papers. Some men expect them to act like subservient, in elaborate rituals of obedience and submission. I’m not saying that foreigners have domestic abuse on lock (My father was abusive and my mom bounced out to save her life. And they are very much American). I’m just not trying to repeat those patterns with someone who feels as if he has religious sanction to beat me down (One girl’s uncle told her brother who was left in charge of the house while her father went on vacation said:”If they don’t listen ‘Darabhuna!!’ It’s in the Quran, ‘Darabhuna!’” Nor am I trying to be with someone who might bounce out once he got his residency or have some other family back in his homeland. I know too many horror stories.
I’m not trying to get married to some guy who doesn’t know American culture and can’t navigate all the ins and outs. I’ve heard numerous stories of women who have been wooed while studying or working abroad. They bring their husbands over in the states, they get settled in and the women get bopped upside the head. I’m so cool on that. I college counselor I know married an African man, he bounced out with the kids. She started an organization for all the women whose husbands took the kids back to Africa and hid them. I’m cool on that one too.
I advocate my sisters to keep their options open and not to settle for less. Because of the dismal stats (ghetto Islam and effective prison dawa with no suport for integrating ex cons in society) and racism in our community, there are a number of Black Muslim women who don’t have many halal solutions. We know immigrant brothers are quick to claim so cultural conflict when it comes to considering a black woman. But then, they will race to marry a new white shahada. As for Black women, non-Muslim men are stepping to them–hijab and all. So, when these sisters hear statements that are biased against them, it fills them with anger and despair.
Black men leave without a greencard and beat women…..when the feel like it…”america has named a shirt after abusive husbands and mates….loolhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wifebeater_(shirt)#Wifebeate….American culture isnt what establishes compatiblity ….The Prophet said: Whoever comes with the calls of Jahiliyah..,then let him bite the head of his father’s penis….(adabul moofrad)….Unlissted2007 chow-down
Umar Lee and Margari…i am so glad that you are here….more people need to be open and frank like you..about RACISM..about BLACK SKIN..and BLACK WOMEN
if the problem wasnt so bad..then all of north africa and the arabian gulf wouldnt try so hard to wipe away any trace of their african ancestry ..and when i say try hard…i mean try really really hard….
i havent seen so many european white women being imported (either by marriage..which is more common or prostitution) into Kuwait, UAE, KSA since the circassian slave trade…these women are idealized, glorified and are literally seen as Allah’s most precious creation…so you can imagine on the opposite side of the spectrum..how black women are seen in these societies…
lol…i am afraid that in 50 years or so the arabian gulf will be primarily made up of blonde haired blue eyed arabs of european decent instead of the beautiful dark featured arabs of today…but sometimes…God gives you exactly what u ask for…
someone stated earlier that..the only problem a black person would have in the middle east is finding a good job..or getting married……i am sorry…but i almost wanted to break my computer in half from reading such a tragic statement..
how can a person think that being able to find a good stable job, and having a good life with a family and respect of the community as something small and unimportant???????
if anything..one of the biggest problems effecting the middle east and the arabian gulf IS colorism, “racism” and lack of identity….
as an african american women with experience in the arabian gulf..i can tell you that…it is very difficult living in a society where as a black woman…you are considered to be..absolutely the bottom of the barrel…i mean ur the crust and dirt at the bottom of the barrel…it doesnt matter your education level, ur intelligence, ur beauty..its all about color and race..
thats why it upsets me when i hear men..especially black/arab/south asian men make comments about black women not having the personality of an ideal mate
black women….stop listening to their excuses..its not your personality..its not your behavior..it is your race and skin color…plain and simple..point BLANK!
you could have the nicest, kindest, personality…you could be the most modest, most intelligent woman..but because your black..many of the men will not even jokingly consider you for marriage
dont think for a second that it is YOU..the reason why a white woman can convert to islam and the next day have 1000 men asking her to be his wife…is because of the colorism and the racism that is still present today
and this is why..we need to fight HARD to combat this type of colorism within the middle east and the arabian gulf…because it effects ALL the people that live there..and it is now heavily effecting the muslim population in the united states….particulary black women
fight the colorism so that people can live in peace and have respect for people of all different shades and colors….
Margari…I will comment on ur blog..there is so much i want to say to you..i love ur blog and i hope u will continue to comment on ur experience as a black woman in the arabian gulf….i know its hard..but u must tell the world the truth…be safe..be careful…please be careful..my prayers to you…
So much problem regarding marriage. Alhamdulillah this life is very short and we’ll all leave it soon. (Even if we die at 100 years of age, I consider it to be soon enough.)
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True, the good women from both sides of the Atlantic are not spoken for in here, and the good brothers from both places are barely spoken for.
As-salam ‘ala man attabal huda
My beloved brothers & sisters. We are not worth much. We have submitted to wahn and becomes slaves of this dunya. This is the fitnah ad-Dajjal. We think we are worth something we think we are special. This is the jahiliyyah ingrained in us due to the corrupt environment we live in. Let at look at Our Prophet salAllahu ‘alayhi was-sallam and His wives. How he demanded so little of them and how they lived in huts without any kitchen or bathroom. We men and women are too materialistic. We think we deserve more than what Allah has given us and we are ungrateful because sometimes we don’t get everything we want as if we deserve any better. SubhanAllah we think because we said La ilaha illAllah we should be given everything in this dunya as if the Face of Allah is not enough.
All what can I say is that marriage is a sacred point in people’s lives however were their religion , colours or countries , so my comment is a hope of serious to everyone seeking marriage. ihdina sirat al mostakim .
As salaam alaikum,
Bro’s and Sis’s;
If you obey Allah and follow his prophet(saws), then you should have very little trouble with marriage. Simply find a mate who does the same. All of these issues are related in Hadith. (make sure the issnads are sound). Sometimes the companions didn’t have much or anything at all to give as mahr. They were instructed to marry anyway. Abusing our spouses is forbidden. As long as we stay on the Sunnah, we will all live peacefully.
Ramadan-mubarak. My Allah forgive us all…..