The Crisis of Muslim Youth and a Call for a Meeting
I was contacted over the weekend by a very thoughtful sister concerned about the issues surrounding Muslims sisters as outlined in my blog who thought it would be a good idea to include some resources for helping sisters and has said she is working on compiling a list of Muslim organizations set-up to counter domestic violence and the like. This weekend I also was moved by the comments of sister Musleema referring to the number of Muslim youth from broken homes who are angry and teetering on the edge of disaster. These comments led me to begin to wonder about practical things we can do to help some of those in our community who are in a state of anger, disillusionment, frustration, and at the doors of apostasy. Of those who are in this group one of the largest would be our Muslim youth especially those whose parents were a part of “movements” that gave them false hopes of an Islamic Utopia that turned into nightmares for their children.
In crafting an effort to help the youth we must first recognize that many are wounded, may have conflicted or negative perceptions towards many aspects of Islam, may not have a great relationship with at least one of their parents, and have heard all of the corny one-liners and catch-phrases of those who do not recognize any problems and have an Islamic Utopian mentality before, namely their parents and those adults they grew-up with.
These young people are from a generation of Muslims in America who have either grown-up in Muslim schools, been home schooled by Muslim parents, have grown up in the masjid and went to public schools, or are the products of parents who made “hijrah”. They read Quran, have memorized a significant number of suras, possibly speak Arabic, have never celebrated a non-Muslim holiday, have never eaten pork, and have a fairly high level of knowledge and understanding of the deen.
For the most part I am talking about the children of converts, but there are children of immigrant Muslims who fit into this category, but regardless of where their parents came from, they are all in the same boat now as many of them have grown up amongst one another and their identity is firmly that of Muslims.
The disillusionment and anger of many of these youth comes from the fact many of these children of movement Muslims, whether their parents be Salafis, Sufis, Tabliquis, or whatever, do not share the same idealism and fervor that their parents have. Rather, they see that they have moved all over the country (or world) and never been able to settle into a regular life for kids as their parents have sought the best Muslim community on the “Haqq”, have only known poverty while additional siblings were being added every year, if their parents have not been married and divorced multiple times they have many friends whose parents have, and they have seen no tangible benefits to being Muslim or shunning the dunya.
It is likely that these kids have non-Muslim relatives who attended the same schools throughout their academic career, have not moved around, are stable, and seem to be enjoying life while they feel as if they are captives of their family’s vision of Islam which forbids enjoying life.
Some of these kids come from two parent families; but we are going to have to face the reality that many of these kids have fathers who have no relationship with them and do not support them while they are out buying new thobes and the latest “must have” CD of Islamic lectures (or even giving the lectures). The other reality is that we have kids that have known 3, 5, and even 10 or 15 Muslim stepfathers in their lives and this colors their bitter vision of life as a Muslim. Having watched their mothers being treated poorly by the Muslim men in their life the girls can develop a negative attitude towards Muslim men and the boys see the hypocrisy in the talk and action at the masjid.
This is leading to an angry young generation and some will be isolated Muslims, some will strive for a better and more balanced way, some will develop emotional problems and personality disorders, and others may even leave the deen as some already have. I can point to examples of all of these things; I know Muslims who grew-up like this who are sincere practicing Muslims but having seen false-piety so much they don’t come around Muslims that often, others are trying to correct the errors of their parents and find a more balanced deen; but it is unfortunate that I know of a number of Muslim kids who grew up the children of active members in the community and given a full Islamic foundation who are now in prison, are mentally ill, or just out of balance. And then, and then you have those we all fear, who are not Muslim at all.
People may say I should not talk about this, I should leave this one alone, but the reality is that some of the young are leaving Islam, and if we do not get our act together more will do so as they are being raised by fanatical parents. Several Muslim kids I know from strong Muslim backgrounds are now in the streets selling drugs or in gangs. One sister I know has several children by a drug dealer and whose tattooed body and tight-jeans look is far from the niqaab she wore when she was 12. Her sisters are still Muslim, masha’Allah, but they have both been divorced three times before the age of eighteen, and I have to wonder what kind of a view the children of such unions will have towards the deen. Yes we can tell them the deen is the middle path and that we treat our women well and the Muslims are the standard bearers for all things good; but what will these empty words mean to them after they were raised in chaos? If a young girl has had six Muslim step-fathers can she then look at marriage in the idealistic and naïve way like her mother did? If a father had had twenty or thirty wives and children by several of them then is it a far step for the son to say he can have that many girlfriends and “baby mammas”? Or, on a more educated level, how will this negative experience from the deen growing up help them, say if they do go to college, combat the assault from secular humanism, outright hedonism and atheistic liberalism?
Can we expect healthy identity from Muslim kids who were say; born in St. Louis, raised in New Jersey, DC, and South Carolina before being hauled off to Yemen as their father studied deen only to get some kind of rare disease while they lived in Third World poverty? How balanced will they be? Or will they be as angry and bitter as a family of Muslim kids I know raised in Saudi Arabia who barely speak English and have been kicked out of the country only to come to America to live in a ghetto they do not understand with no job skills or edcuation.
Within the next ten years we are going to see tens of thousands of such kids coming of age all over the country who are products of parents with various Muslim movement mentalities and if we do not prepare for them now then we are going to have a wide scale disaster on our hands. One way that we can guarantee failure is to ignore the problem and pretend like it doesn’t exists because, who knows, maybe the kufar are reading and we don’t want to look bad. Already, right now, there are masjids that are dealing with this problem on a wide scale basis. There is a masjid I know of right now full of sisters who have been divorced multiple times and their angry children who they cannot control. The anger of the children is not only being directed towards their bearded and studied fathers; but towards Islam itself, as the only image they have of Muslims in their mind is of dysfunctional and unsuccessful people. Will those kids who were raised without as their fathers glorified the merits of being broke and shunned the “dunya” and education not be bitter when they look at their non-Muslim cousins living comfortable lives? Will they notice that their aunt has not been married ten times and their uncle has had the same job for 20 years?
We need to start moving towards solutions right now and not wait for the problem to grow into a calamity. All of us have the potential to bring something to the table. Some brothers and sisters like me may be able to help with youth sports (in my case boxing and wrestling) but others may be able to contribute in various ways.
This issue is so big that I think we are in need of a working meeting over one day to address the issue that can start a sustained campaign. I am sending out a call to all concerned Muslims in the Washington, DC metro area, where I currently am, to email me at umarlee at gmail.com if you are interested. This means brothers and sisters and Muslims form all backgrounds and anyone with good ideas. After I get the emails insha’Allah I will secure a location and a date and time. Please do not miss this opportunity to be a part of a solution and I will be writing about this as things develop.
December 3, 2007 at 9:08 pm
A few things here. The begining to it all must rest in what people are taught in the deen and how they are taught it.
It is all nice and good to dedicate large portions of your life learning religion, but did no one ever think to ask if the family was suffering? Islam is about moderation, but it seems there is no moderation in what you are talking about.
For many of these people it would seem they are doing nothing but transfering one ghetto life to another. Their behavior doesnt seem to change, rather they spend hours learning how to justify having 20 wives and 15 children and supporting none of them. Instead of girlfriends and “baby mommas” you get multiple wives in short period of time and kids that you refuse to pay for because the mothers are no longer “on it”.
Instead of arguing little points of fiqh and blacklisting each other over differences of opinions, these guys ought to be striving to see which brother can best raise his kids, provide the best experience and life for their families.
Do you think God will accept all of the time learning if it was done as just another way to avoid the wife, avoid the kids, and more often than not, avoid a real job, paying the bills and supporting your family?
Let’s call it what it is, these parents are drop outs. They want to be a part of something, in this case Islam, but dont want to do the hard work it takes to lead a decent life. For many of these types they might have just as well as joined a local street gang as become a Muslim. It is the same thing for them. Either way, they really dont have to change their lives too much.
Lets start at the root of the issue, as that is the only way to address a problem. The root is deadbeat parents with little or no drive who are looking for anything and everything to give them an excuse to not live a decent life.
You talk about the kids not staying Muslim, but a good percentage of the parents you describe will leave Islam as well. Why? Because it was another fad and excuse to sit around and do nothing. Have multiple kids, have multiple wives, dont get a good education, dont get a job, only when they convert to Islam they can come up with some hafl-baked “moral” excuse as to why they do it.
The proper raising of families should be one of the main issues talked about on a daily basis in the Islamic schools, mosques and groups. Sadly enough, it is not.
The children of the people you describe drift so quickly into deviant behavior, because the truth is, they never left it. It isnt that far to go from “Halal Baby Momma” to having regular Baby Mommas. It isnt that hard to go from 15 “Muslim Step-Fathers” to having 15 boyfriends. There is really no different.
These people have converted to Islam, but they have never lived Islam. They live the same way they did before, they just call everything by different names. The vocabulary has changed, their actions have not.
Your issue dealt mostly with children of convert children, but there is just as serious an issue brewing with the children of Muslim immigrants. Many or going the way of America’s Jewish community who are integrating and disappearing into American society, loosing all of their Islam along the way.
I met a young Pakistani guy today at a business lunch. Turns out his father was Pakistani, his mother an American. He knows no Urdu, knows nothing about Islam. This is very common here in the USA.
It isnt just inter-cultural people from Muslim backgrounds, it is the sons and daughters of Muslims from Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, North Africa. They are Muslim in name only.
We risk following the Jewish community in the USA where some 50%+ marry outside of their community, most of them have the smallest knowledge of their faith, and in two generations there are no Jews left in their family.
We are in serious trouble on both fronts and the Muslim clergy and establishment dont want to do a thing about it.
December 3, 2007 at 11:16 pm
As salaamu alaikum,
I think to a large extent, the situations you are describing about the multiple marriages and so on are problems relating mostly to specific communities or types of people- and that’s ok, just that not everyone can relate nor will it encompass all Muslim youth. Its true that their children are getting a bad impression of Islam from that way.
I think however, that the other demographic, the settled, well-to-do, immigrant family case will need some attention too, and people who understand that background. Although it seems that one background seems worse than the other on a dunyawi level, the children of both types of families are sufferring from a disconnect, not always because of how their parents live, but also the general challenges of being in society today and not personally feeling uplifted by religion. This is across so many groups- perhaps the children haven;t been able to think about Islam for themselves and which style they prefer.
Abu Sinan, I understand your claim that there are people who are trying to avoid work through Islam, but try to look at it from those people’s shoes as well. Sometimes, those people are trying hard to leave old lifestyles, they never had appropriate job training or education before Islam, and they realize that the world is a rat race. How many brothers will say that if they try to get a very decent life together, they work overtime and lose out on what they want to study and do, or even small things like having some time to themselves? I am not saying I support that, because family is a responsibility, but we need to find solutions that are realistic. Many people are led to believe that the only service to Islam is in becoming a scholar; sometimes since the only role models we see are speakers, young Muslims want to do that same thing, not realizing the balance of responsibilities it requires.
On one hand, you have not working at all and marrying many times, the other hand, is chasing dunya, and being content with living a religion-less life that is still ethical (or so they think). I think both need to be considered when addressing the problems with Muslim youth today.
December 4, 2007 at 1:59 am
As Salaamu Alaikum Brother Umar:
This piece makes me cry. I see these kids and youth daily … in prison. I listen to their stories. They tell it just like you wrote it.
I have just retired from our prison system here, and am now the Muslim chaplain for the facility, Alhamdulillah.
To Everyone:
One of the places to start for making a difference is in our prisons. Contact the Muslim chaplain or Facility chaplain in a prison near you. They would welcome you as a volunteer. Incarcerated Muslims, especially young inmates, need good Muslim role models. You may be their only connection to the community when they are released. Volunteer to be a pen pal to an incarcerated Muslim kid. Just be there for them. A hug goes a long way … especially to a Muslim kid who only knows touch as incest, a punch, or a smack.
December 4, 2007 at 2:17 am
SubhanAllah, am i living in a box?? I havent seen any of the problems that are described above in NY =) The community i am part of, are middle class, most of them have good jobs and stable families. Alhamdulillah and yes they are practicing Muslims and very active in the community….
Of course there are minor problems (e.g. sisters are more practicing then brothers so marriage problems , etc) but i m just confused whether u r really talking about Muslims of America…
December 4, 2007 at 4:14 am
Abu said:
“These people have converted to Islam, but they have never lived Islam. They live the same way they did before, they just call everything by different names. The vocabulary has changed, their actions have not.”
Very well put. I see a lot of these types in my city and frankly, they make me sick to my stomach. If we could take a hint from the Orthodox Jewish culture, a little shunning of these types would go a long way. Why does the Muslim community always continue to embrace these losers?
December 4, 2007 at 4:29 am
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December 4, 2007 at 7:12 am
I don’t think shunning, as a rule, is a good solution. We should be reaching out to lift others up, and only back away if they’re bringing us down.
December 4, 2007 at 9:51 am
@ …
Brother Umar IS talking about American Muslims
He has only spoken the truth
@ Abu Sinan
Your post was PERFECT! : )
December 4, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Salaams Umar,
An important post, written with your usual vigour. This is an important issue and must be tackled.
Allah bless you always
Abdur Rahman
December 4, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Parallel…
I am talking about habitual offenders here. Sure everyone can make a mistake, but when there is a pattern to the behavior, we have to put these folks out on their a****. I cannot take my daughters around much of the community because every segment seems to have a whole group of losers, baby mama dramas, drug addicts, DL boys, what have you. When are we going to actually show that we stand up for the MORALS that we preach about to non-Muslims on the daily? I hate the fact that some of these “Brothers and Sisters” can do whatever they want outside of the masjid doors, but when something is said, well, that makes YOU a backbiter and a slanderer. I am sorry, but that is just wrong. We should be able to stand up and call people out on their un-Islamic behavioral patterns.
If we don’t, we are allowing their filth to penetrate the rest of our community. I not only agree with shunning 100% but I think a little black list amongst Imams is just DANDY too. These types are chameleons and they just love to bounce from Masjid to Masjid, marrying some unsuspecting new convert or what have you. In a twist of IRONY, you will often see these very same people attempting to be on panel discussions, or interfaith dialogs trying to propagate the faith that they so meagerly adhere to themselves. Give me a break. We need a LOT of good old fashioned shunning, at the very least, I think it’s a good start.
December 4, 2007 at 4:08 pm
I often wonder what became of the 15 year old African American girl, who made hijrah to the Gulf (to sit with a Salafi Shaykh) with her mother, step-father and their younger children only to be shipped back alone to live with kafir relatives after her mother woke up to discover the step-father raping her in her sleep. After asking Shaykh Fawzee al-Athari (or his wife) the permissability of staying with him, she was told that it was her choice but that the girl could not stay. She made the tough choice of not letting her other children go fatherless and sent her oldest daughter back.
Needless, to say the brother was not exposed, because he did not have manhaj issues.
Can you imagine, what drove the mother to make this choice? I doubt it was love for the man, but more the fact that she knew if she left him her options were few. How sad!
December 4, 2007 at 4:11 pm
O let’s not get started on the DL (down low) brothers! They are out there big time and yes many are on the manhaj!
December 4, 2007 at 4:20 pm
@ fairuzamizna
You are so right. I am sickened when I see some of these speakers on these panels feigning righteousness while they are not taking care of their very own families. The “du’at” that move from city to city are the ones that you have to watch very carefully. THERE IS A REASON THEY ARE MOVING every year. THAT should be a HUGE hint to many.
It is normal to move a couple of times, but these guys move several times and marry in each city until they are run out
December 4, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Salaams Everyone:
The masjids in Philly have a “black list” of these kinds of brothers.
Sisters must work together to help sisters increase self-esteem. Some sisters knowingly marry these brothers. The variables are many: fear of being alone, need for sex, need for money, etc. Such an emphasis is placed on marriage in the Muslim community; many sisters feel targeted for criticism by other Muslims if they are not married, i.e., “what’s wrong with you that you are unmarried” kind of thing.
MANA is trying to address this issue:
http://www.mana-net.org/pages.php?ID=projects&ID2=&NUM=32
December 4, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Fairuzamizna,
I agree with you 100%. The mosques are not often safe for our girls anymore, there are as many predators if not more in them, yet they hdie behind their screen of “piousness”.
Here in the DC area I know of more than a few respected people who sit on these boards and are very active in the community when their own personal lives are a shamble and it would seem their time away from their own family “in service of the community” has contributed to it.
I was going to tell a few stories without naming names, but I have decided not to. Anyone who has lived in the DC area will know of well respected leaders who had large family issues and almost everyone knows the details.
We arent talking inner-city mosques, we are talking middle/upper classes areas and communities like Dar al Hijarah.
These problems are everywhere.
Those people who act like they do not see this stuff at their mosque are either at Disneyland or keep their eyes close. I have been to mosques all over the USA and Europe and these problems exist at every single one, to one extent or another.
December 4, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Here’s a sort of Dramatization of the issue at hand which I thought was somewhat relevant: from an article entitled, AZZAM THE AMERICAN
by RAFFI KHATCHADOURIAN, which appeared in the January 22 2007 issue of the New Yorker Magazine:
Diab’s ex-wife is Saraah Olson, and, though her memory is colored by her divorce, she and her son, Ryan, offer the most detailed picture of Gadahn’s radicalization. Olson had met Diab in 1991, while she was working as a secretary at California State University at Dominguez Hills. He had come by her office to pick up some forms, and, a few minutes later, he returned to ask her out. They began dating, and after about a year they married. Ryan, Olson’s son from a previous marriage, was nearly six, and, encouraged by Diab, the two converted to Islam. Ryan adopted the name Bilal and began attending a local Muslim school; Saraah began wearing a hijab and got a job at the Islamic Society. But soon, Olson told me, Diab was attempting to control every aspect of their lives, often through physical abuse. Diab hung blankets over the windows. He prevented Ryan from playing outside, and forced him to study a book of Arabic prayers.
“Hisham was just a hair trigger away from killing someone,” Ryan, who is now a twenty-year-old college student, told me. “I had made it halfway through the book, with no problems. But I mispronounced a couple of words, and Hisham was like ‘Do it again.’ I was like ‘O.K.,’ and I mispronounced them again. And that just set him off, and he came down right on my back with those hands. And I remember a rush of air out of my lungs, and I fell to the floor. I went upstairs—my mom was in the bedroom—and Hisham was just going insane, just spitting vitriol out of his mouth. My mom closed and locked the door. It was like the bullfights in Spain—like one of those bulls charged right through the door, and it collapsed right in front of him. And he just came right through and grabbed my mom, and I don’t remember what happened next except that he dragged her out onto the balcony.” Later, Ryan said, “I hated being Bilal.”
December 4, 2007 at 5:41 pm
One reality I think we, as Muslims, need to acknowledge is the fact that in many cases we have simply replaced dating with ‘Islamic Marriage’. Perhaps this is more pertinent to the converts among us. We lived our lives prior to becoming Muslims with certain expectations which it seems we simply adopt to ‘Islamically acceptable’ situations. In addition, I think many of us, again, in particular the converts, marry at a much younger age than we ever would have considered were we not Muslims. Therefore, we see an almost collective lack of maturity and responsibilty in our communities, directly pertaining to marriage and otherwise,
December 4, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Woe is me…….
I have seen many a mother sacrifice their children on the altar of selfishness. Why any woman would want to remarry while she has young daughters is beyond me. The statistics are out there as to the sexual abuse rates in blended families. I have even heard of a muslim woman marrying a man who was accused by a previous step-daughter of molestation….AND THE NEW WIFE KNEW ABOUT IT AND MOVED IN ANYWAYS (with daughters in tow)!
These women are not MOTHERS, they are simply BREEDERS, and that, in the most basest, animalistic sense of the word.
December 4, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Asalamualaikum
I thought this article was a question and answer of everyone who is seeking truth. I really enjoy reading Brother Umar Lee’s blog.
The most important problem we are facing today with youngster is that their parents are not getting married because of Islam. They are just converting their faith to fit in the society of the ones they want to spend their life with. The parents who have reverted their deen to Islam just for the sake of Allah alone; their children are not lost or misjudging anything about Islam. As for a fathers leaving children behind to acquire knowledge. If the father/mother has decided it for Allah than Allah is alone responsible for their families who step out of their house for Allah. A simple example is if you leave for war today for sake of the country, the country helps the soldier’s family. Allah is more responsible than a mere country.
December 4, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Having become interested in Islam while at college in an idyllic little New England town, i have to say that i was in for a shock when i moved to the Big City to further my Islamic studies and be involved in the da`wah. I went assuming that the Muslims there (talking about African-Americans, primarily) would be like Malcolm X’s with traditional Islamic knowledge. (Keep in mind this was at the time when everyone was walking around with their X caps.) I could not have possibly fathomed that the MUSLIMS there were more “ghetto” than the clowns and knuckleheads i used to hang with back in high school–but the Muslims there were.
It took me about a week (less than that, actually)–after the high of being in a Islamic environment began to wear off–to realize that the kids (and the parents) were still suffering from the same n!gger mentality of the typical ghetto kaafir. The thought from the immigrant leadership was that if the people are simply taught traditional knowledge, then their (African-Americans’) problems would fade away. I knew that wouldn’t be the case, for unlike the AA, the immigrants, even if they are horrendously ignorant of the Religion, at least function (in general): they get up and go to work, they aren’t on drugs, and they aren’t robbing and shooting people in petty street crimes.
Two things need to be done to fix the situation. For one, as much as people detest him, we have to look at the program of the Despicable Elijah Poole. He not only provided a comprehensive program for AA’s, he also addressed the MIND SET of the n!gger mentality, and his organization (in the most ideal sense) had ZERO TOLERANCE for the n!gger mentality. Sadly, a lot of African-Americans in coming to Sunni Islam tended to throw out the baby with the bath water. There were a many useful practices and ideas coming out of the (old) Nation of NOT Islam that African-American Muslims seem to have abandoned.
In my time in the City, i always felt like the discussion regarding the youth had to begin with: “How do you get them out (of the ghetto)?” You are not going to fix the ghetto pathologies while remaining in the ghetto. For a whole lot of reasons, you need to have the kids in boarding schools out in the country. There must be a psychological break with the ghetto mind set–and it must be a complete break from the ghetto. The youth need to see what the ghetto for what it is–and it ain’t about “being black” or “keeping it real”–the ghetto is about the powers-that-be largely orchestrating circumstances that are designed to keep black people at the bottom of the social heap. If–and this is a big if–the kids can keep their street smarts and know how to think on their feet, and be hip to the high level cons without being contaminated by the gutter culture of the ghetto, that is good, but if they can’t do both, it is far better for them to lose touch with the ghetto than to feel that their worldview must be circumscribed by it.
Another point is the such schools must have a curriculum that is relevant to the MAJOR changes we can see happening in this globalism era. These youth need to be trained for world leadership–and nothing else. For those who simply don’t have the ability or inclination (for such an education), then they need to acquire the necessary skills so they can marry and afford a family–even if they are still in their teens.
Lastly, what is need is something akin to the ole school (so-called) Muslim Girl Training (MGT) from the Eli Poole’s group. And along with that, “Muslim Chivalry Training”–wherein, the boys are taught what it means to be a man… and how to treat and put up with women. In summary, this ghetto mentality that prevails in many of the inner city Islamic centers needs to be dealt with head on, for if it is not, as Umar said, the Muslim community will be consumed by the ghetto pathologies that wreck havoc on so much of black America.
P.S.
I have my own critique of the immigrant communities, but that isn’t the subject of this post.
December 4, 2007 at 10:31 pm
If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.
As I was reading this entry, I got this nagging feeling that I had heard this all somewhere before. Low and behold, these american muslims really are living the american dream - that of the puritans. They made hijrah to the US and went about setting up their little utopia, their city on the hill. Many of their good kids, those raised in a 100% puritan environment, rejected the faith when they became adults.
I wonder if something can be learned from this? Time to dig out those old history books.
Once things get cooking in the DC area, please let the rest of us know, especially if there is something we can do from states afar.
December 5, 2007 at 12:06 am
What is described here is not indirect but direct and seems, on the whole, concerning the break up of Afro-American Muslims.
The criticisms are right in places but a certain dismissive tone has been aired and congratulated as if Emile Durkhiem has returned to describe the life and times of religion among the poor and depraved.
Lose the ‘word’ Muslim, and leave in just ‘Afro-American’, it sounds like we are steering towards right wing polemics against a whole community, and without the usual customary social-economic analysis (except in Swath Moor’s case).
What is happening to a community or generation is happening in UK and France to second and third generation Muslims. Differences are minimal.
In Europe, and brigades of polemicists, Islamo-phobes are writting in the terms heard here, but any respectful critique is more balanced, looking at racial, cultural, social and economic factors.
These are the seminal factors in deprivation, including moral deprivation ; and the sad fact is that the people condemned here were perhaps naive enough to beleive that by State or Globe trotting they would be able to escape those ever present realities.
We have choices but these too can be circumscribed.
Islamic education is useful but not conclusive in relation to community healing. Inshallah, the brothers know of the Suwaida area in Riyad. This perhaps will indicate the issue.
December 5, 2007 at 1:45 am
Although I would not word it the exact same way as Swarthmoor, I concur that we need something akin to FOI/MGT orientation style classes within the confines of the Sunnah, minus the Yakoub science and the motherplane mumbo jumbo.
I think that some of the animosity that many of us have towards the NOI has less to do with disdain for their `aqeedah and more to do with our envy for the dignity in which those brothers and sisters presented back in the day in comparison to what a lot of us are reppin with all of our “`ilm” that we say we have under the Sunnah.
According to Imam Ash-Shafi’i, ‘ilm is not what is memorized but what is demonstarted. Perhaps, we do know as much about the Sunnah as we think that we do.
December 5, 2007 at 2:50 am
swarthmoor,
brother, I would love to hear your commentary on the immigrant community also.
You are very correct in that the ghetto negro mentality is unfortunately very prevalent in inner city muslim communities.
December 5, 2007 at 3:45 pm
The problems detailed in this post are not affecting only AA communities. Some children born to immigrant parents are caught in the legal syste, are selling drugs, or at the very least, admire their peers who do. For those of you who think its not a problem, you are living in a dreamworld.
December 5, 2007 at 4:44 pm
fairuzamizna,
I would have to take issue about the idea of sisters with young daughters getting married. Should sisters with young daughters wait until they 18? I am not sure even this would help, should they wait until their leave the house and get married?
What does this do to the life of a mother of a two year old girl whose husband leaves her? Is she required to stay single until the girl is 18, or even longer?
I married my wife and she had a young daughter, aged 10, and a young son, aged 11. It is often very hard for mothers with children to remarry, especially in the case of women from immigrant communities where the culture works against it.
I think the keys is not for the women not to remarry, it is for them to be very picky in whom they choose to marry. When you have children and are put in a position to remarry, for whatever reason, you are not just choosing a spouse you are also choosing a new parent for your children. This added duty requires extra care in the selection of the new spouse.
Advocating that mothers with young daughters do not get married opens up a whole new can of worms for these women. These women are already viewed with suspicion in certain communities, making it so they cannot get married for years or even a decade or more is entirely unfair and would open them up to even more suspicion, never mind the opening in their own lives to act in haram ways because they do not have a spouse and wont have for years.
Men who abuse little children will abuse their children as well as the children of their spouse. The goal is to marry someone who wont have an issue with any children, not just those in a blended family situation.
Shwarthmoor,
An excellent post and I too would like to hear what you have to say about the immigrant community.
December 5, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Asalamualaikum,
I agree with Abu Sinan.
“I think the keys is not for the women not to remarry, it is for them to be very picky in whom they choose to marry. When you have children and are put in a position to remarry, for whatever reason, you are not just choosing a spouse you are also choosing a new parent for your children. This added duty requires extra care in the selection of the new spouse.”
Muslim parents raise their children in west and look forward to them to go back to their country and marry a person raised in totally different culture.
December 6, 2007 at 3:11 am
Bismillah
I haven’t read all the comments so don’t mind if I’m repeating things that have already been said.
Those issues you’ve described are not very prevelant in my community, although there’s no denying they do exist to some extent. Perhaps I don’t see it because I’m not in any ‘movement type mentality.
I do however deal very often with problems in what you often refer to as the ‘immigrant community’. There’s seems to be a huge disconnect between the young people and the older generation. It’s common to see parents who put extra effort into making sure their children have secular education while ignoring thier islamic education or giving them their version of cultural Islaam. I’ve also seen parents who couldn’t care less about educating their children and don’t go to meet teachers. I’ve seen many fathers who while present physically, are absent from raising thier children. It’s sad…youth accross the board need attention. We’ve been working here to establish a mentoring program and it’s kicking off soon alhamdullilaah.
You can’t solve a problem that you don’t admit you have. The first step is to get people to understand that there is a problem. Good post Umar..
December 6, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Abu,
I was really just referring to the women who bounce from one husband to the next. (The types that get involved in quickie marriages without thinking of their children’s safety and security at all.)
Women just need to be careful, take their time and check references before making such a crucial decision.
December 6, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Fairuza,
I agree. It amazes me how convert women will make choices about men that they never would have made before they converted.
I also think, with men as well as women, if you are on your fourth marriage and it isnt working out, maybe you just arent cut for marriage and need to stop getting married.
These multiple marriages often tend to be nothing more than “halal” dating. Many times it seems to be cheaper on the brothers. A nice hijab for a mahr and off you go to the marital chamber.
Even a movie and a dinner costs more than that.
December 6, 2007 at 7:48 pm
fairuzamizna:
ASA,
I understand your point. I know a sister like this personally. Married twice and been in so called muta 2 or 3 times. Although, I don’t understand how you can muta with somone who isn’t shia like you. How in the world do you muta a man claiming to be Salafi or 5%er?
It wouldn’t be so bad if she didnt have very young kids but when i read this article all I can think about is what type of men will they become?
I tried to talk to her about it… about this lack of foundations, security, and stablility (sp) she is teaching her children but she can’t hear me. She looks at it as not being her fault. She can’t force the brothers to stay and she doesn’t want to be alone and needs help.
I tried to tell her that none of the brothers you have choosen thus far had any ture intentions to stick around. They see a woman with kids and just take advantage, but its up to you to not rush into anything as if its your only chance to find happiness.
I feel like I’m talking to myself in the dark.
*sighs*
December 6, 2007 at 8:04 pm
I have known people like that. She needs to understand that these guys with the Muta are engaging in an act that their theology says is haram, yet they are doing it anyway.
What does that say about the character of the guys she is picking. What she also needs to realise is that her behavior is going to turn off the decent brothers who might take her, and her children, and actually stay.
Her children are going to learn bad behavior from this and in the future are likely to turn on her.
December 6, 2007 at 8:35 pm
I find it interesting that many of you assume that these ant-social behaviors of crime, unemployment, and violence are somehow endemic only to African Americans.
If you look at how many North African Arabs in Paris, France behave you will find they exhibit many of the same anti-social behaviors of poor African Americans: Crime, drugs, incarceration, unemployment, and violence. Yet these people come directly FROM the land of Islam and don’t have the historical baggage of slavery and Jim Crow.
The phenomenon of gang rapes “tournante” in Paris, where Arabs have victimized fellow Arab women who they feel are not properly covered by gang raping them with sometimes up to 14 men is quite common.
I say this to point out that dysfunctional anti-social behavior is not a function of race. It is a function of urban poverty, lack of social mobility, cultural oppression, racism, poor family structure, poor education, and social dislocation.
This anti-social behavior can even be seen among Muslims immigrant youth in London. You have Pakistani kids there engaged in gang like activity that you would never expect that good “desi” honor student in the U.S. to engage in.
So next time I hear Muslims (immigrant or not) talking about “ghetto niggers” in America, I would suggest they observe the behavior of people from their own homeland in other parts of the Western world who don’t have to deal with the historical realities African Americans cope with in this country.
December 6, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Abdul Jabbar
point well taken.
December 6, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Abu Sinan,
Your first point sends shivers. Many people convert to Islam but dont become Muslim.
I was thinking in order to avoid the problem of “halah dating” shouldnt women increase the portion of their mahr to say thousands of dollars to exclude the rifraf?
December 6, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Abdul Jabbar,
I agree with what you are saying about the problems of Muslim youth in Europe. However the are living lives where they have more money, more education, more social mobility than their parents back in Algeria or Pakistan. How can they have more social problems living in the West where they have far more social and economic mobility than their counterparts back in the home country?
December 6, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Abu Sinan:
I have tried to express to her some of the same points. I told her at the very least if you want to see these men then don’t veil it under ANY Islamic titles. Don’t ghetto the deen or allow men to convince you to sauce of deen issues with ghetto behavior. Don’t annouce it to people as if these actions are legit and try to keep it far away from your children.
“What does that say about the character of the guys she is picking. What she also needs to realise is that her behavior is going to turn off the decent brothers who might take her, and her children, and actually stay.”
Funny you said that becuase she just called me a few days ago upset that her brother called and said word at her masjid is that she will marry anyone.
Now, I find that a person (her brother) who doesn’t even attend her masjid would know about the scoop their. It sounds like its more of his personal view that he’s to afraid to just come out and say but that doesn’t mean what he is saying isn’t true. I know there is a lot of pressure to get married fast in communities but I think she just doesn’t think highly of herself. She might be happy to have any help she can get with 2 little boys to raise on her own and maybe feels like she should be happy with what ever she gets.
That’s the envirnment she comes from. A widowed woman with kids should just be happy if anyone wants to deal with them at all.
December 7, 2007 at 2:15 am
Abdul Jabbar,
Excellent point and the same could be said of the Turkish Youth in Germany.
December 7, 2007 at 6:05 am
Bikhair said about Muslims in Europe:
“How can they have more social problems living in the West where they have far more social and economic mobility than their counterparts back in the home country.”
When you have a French cop asking you for your papers on every corner, and a president that calls you “scum”. You might sense some barriers to social mobility that you didn’t have in North Africa.
December 7, 2007 at 11:26 am
Abdul Jabbar,
Word!!
December 7, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Abdul Jabar,
Umar, and others on this post, made it clear they were talking about one segment of the American Muslim population. No one denied the issues with other communities and other countries, it is just that this thread is really not about that.
I hope that Umar and others write posts about the issue you brought up, but that is not what is being talked about here.
I dont think anyone claimed that the African American Muslim community has a corner on this sort of problem.
December 7, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Abdul-Jabbar,
I agree that the ghetto n!gger behavior isn’t exclusive to race–nonetheless, such behavior and attitude is prevalent among inner city African-Americans and others who emulate them. Furthermore, those ghetto n!ggers call themselves such, and those black folks who are not “ghetto” make an effort to distinguish themselves from such people.
Another point to keep in mind is that the jacked up ghetto behavior of European immigrant Muslims is OFTEN IN IMITATION OF THE GUTTER SLUM CULTURE OF “OUR COLOREDS” HERE IN AMERICA. How many of those Euro-Muslims are avid fans of American rap music and culture? Now how many African-Americans are fans of Euro-Muslim music artists? This culture is like a friggin’ virus that is contaminating half the youth on earth.
On last thing–this was one of the things that was strong about the so-called Nation of Islam: they recognized the causes for ghetto pathologies… but they never made excuses or attempted to justify them. Ghetto folk are in the condition they are in (and when i say “ghetto folk,” i don’t mean merely being poor and living in an urban area–i mean GHETTO) because of a lack of morals, self-control, self-respect, and a lack of regard for useful knowledge. The solution is simple: stop actin’ like an urban savage, and your situation will improve. And the best way to improve yourself is to simply IMPLEMENT THE LAWS OF THE RELIGION.
May Allah guide us and protect this Ummah from the pathologies of this gutter-ghetto culture.
December 7, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Swarthmoor writes “This culture is like a friggin’ virus that is contaminating half the youth on earth.”
You are spot on here brother. I have heard imitations of this ghetto culture all over the world, from North African rap on the radio when I was driving in France to saggin’ pants and NWA in Jordan.
Part of the reason that immigrant Muslims look at African Americans the way do is because in their countries the only representation they have of the African American community is rap and the clothes and culture that go with it. So for them all African Americans are nothing more than drug dealing and doing hos and pimps looking to make a quick buck.
It seems for some reason that the worst of America is what is always exported. I wish the youth of North Africa and the Middle East would take the value of learning, hard work and work ethnic, independent thinking, the best of what the USA has to offer.
Instead they’d rather take 50 Cent and sagging pants.
December 7, 2007 at 6:26 pm
So let me get this strait. Arab Muslims in Paris are rioting in the streets because of American hip hop music?
Arab youth are GANG RAPING women in Paris because of American Hip Hop Music??
Muslim youth in Europe are committing crime, getting in trouble with the law and are unemployed because of American Hip Hop music???
You guys need to end your membership in the Bill O’reilly fan club and get a clue.
What was causing Italian Americans to act like urban degenerates in the early 20th century through organized crime? American Hip Hop music?
What is causing the thug life scum culture of the Irish Americans in South Boston? American Hip Hop music?
What caused the birth of scum like Myer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel?? American Hip Hop music?
What is causing Russian Mobsters to exhibit degenerate behavior in New York City? American Hip Hop Music?
Are Asian gangs in Frisco whacking each other like animals because of Young Geezy??
Did Hip Hop create Pablo Escobar to?
All this (barring Pablo Escobar) is a product of the dislocation of the poverty and degenerate nature of the American Urban experience coupled with ostracism from the ruling class of those respective geographic areas.
ALL URBAN POOR PEOPLE EXHIBIT DEGENERATE BEHAVIOR.
Pakis in London, Arabs in Paris, Irish in Boston, Italians in Staten Island, or Russian Jews in New York… all exhibit high amounts of urban degenerate behavior.
When I see Italian Urban white trash whacking each other because someone didn’t pay the vic, I’ll make sure to tell them to turn off the Biggy Smalls.
Black folk have almost 300 years of Slavery, 100 years of Jim crow (up until 1964 Negroes couldn’t even vote in many places), and racism that explains much of the urban degenerate behavior exhibited.
Whets the explanation for you “other” people?
Racism manifests itself in some funny ways.
Hip-hop: The cause for the all the world’s problems… Give me a break.
December 7, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Abu Sinan,
There are many communities that listen to rap music and manage to go on to lead successful lives. Emulating rappers has the added advantage of feeling ultra masculine and fearless. Something perhaps the young Muslim communities in Europe lack. Its the same reason why they are also attracted to hardcore takfiri groups. Its the machismo and aggression that so appealing. Rap and Takfir have become strange bedfellows.
December 7, 2007 at 8:59 pm
When you think of the campaign to emasculate black men for centuries, while it may be exaggerated and excess, it is interesting that sheltered kids from suburbia want to emulate the culture. At least they arent walking around head down, speak when spoken to, and defeated.
December 7, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Abu Sinan,
African-American culture is not without merit (i don’t intend to imply you are saying that it is). The strength of African-American culture lies in its ability to innovate. Thus, AA’s are phenomenally popular all over the world. However, what they have made “hip” and “cool” is this degenerate “hip hop” culture (and when i say “hip hop,” i am talking about the vast bulk of that aural fecal matter). The ability to innovate and be stylish are not mutually exclusive with learning and righteousness (of course, when i say “innovate,” i mean in what is permissible).
We are Muslims, and it is our duty to be the leaders and paragons of humanity–not to be a bunch of ignorant criminal reprobates. Muslims need to realize the grave danger this N-Culture presents to the Ummah. And Muslims need to deal with this thing head on and squash it.
Another virtue of African-Americans is that many of us have not bought into this American Dream thing. African-Americans are a people of protest. Unlike many immigrant Muslims in the US, AA’s don’t tend to long to be absorbed into the melt down pot that is America. It should be clear to anyone with the slightest moral sense that something is DEEPLY WRONG with America, and it behooves us to work to improve this nation and the world. This is where the heroes of African America come in: especially, Malcolm X.
For all those who think they are “keeping it real,” Malcolm was slinging dope, pimpin’, and doing the B & E’s literally 60 years ago. These jokers today ain’t doin’ nothin’ new. To the contrary, they are falling into the same old neo-slave traps that were set up for their grandfathers. Malcolm demonstrates the value of hard work, study, self-denial and moral discipline–and in spite of the fact of coming straight up out of the bowels of black America, he was able to become a world icon. And he was a world icon without beggin’ and shufflin’ and jivin’ to be accepted by mainstream America. Now if you didn’t accept him for what he was, then it didn’t change him one bit from doing what he considered to be right (and was even man enough to admit that what he thought was right was wrong). Black folks today–and African-American Muslims, in particular–HAVE NO EXCUSE for not continuing the legacy of Malcolm. Furthermore, today, we have the blessing of access to authentic traditional Islamic knowledge. It simply astounds me that black folks have abandoned someone like Malcolm for the Half-a-Bucks and the easy-access homo draggin’ drawer cult. Nonetheless, it is our duty as Muslims to turn this thing around, in-sha’ Allah.
With Allah is the guidance and success.
December 7, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Abdul-Jabbar,
It is evident that rap music is a MAJOR CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the degenerate urban culture. You have people who are imitating the gutter culture of black America… because… they saw it in a rap video. We can’t play pretend here: rap is being promoted FOR A REASON, and it is not a benevolent one. Rap (arguably) didn’t make Pablo Escobar–but rap certainly GLORIFIES SUCH HUMAN SCUM.
The problem in the black ghetto is the LACK OF TAQWA. Simply evaluate the prevalent behavior in the ghetto on the scales of the Shari`ah. The Caliph would be busy whoopin’ drunks and fornicators, hackin’ hands off of thieves, bustin’ up adulterers with rocks, and crucifying these clowns doin’ murderous car jackings.
Abdul-Jabbar, racism isn’t causing black people to have a 70% bastard rate nationwide (and a 90% bastard rate in some cities). It isn’t racism that is causing them to kill each other over rags on their heads. Racism isn’t causing them to sell crack to pregnant women. The behavior of these people is due to the DISEASES IN THEIR HEARTS.
Nobody is ignoring the existence of racism, but that isn’t the root of the problems in black America. If you put these people on an island by themselves–with no white people around–they’d go back to their pagan savage roots: walkin’ around nekkid, tatted up, with multiple piercings and bones thru their noses. The root of the problem is that these people have made it a “style” to violate what Allah has Revealed, and this is why folks with discernment look down on such behavior, and that is why Allah has degraded them in this life (and will be in the Hereafter). Muslims need to stop coddling these people. We, as Muslims, have our own identity, and it is not the identity (or behavior) of the mushriks.
December 7, 2007 at 10:01 pm
as salamu alaykum,
Br. Abdul Jabbar you are like this HUGE breath of fresh air in an excrement filled room.
December 7, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Abdul-Jabbar,
I know folks who are poor and live in the “hood,” and they don’t behave like these savages. Why is that? Because they fear Allah and they work on managing their hearts. You can be dignified and still be poor–to the contrary, most of the pious people are from among the poor. Racism is no excuse for such degenerate behavior. Bilal Al-Habashiyy was black; he faced racism. Bilal was a slave (no, i didn’t say his great-great-great-great grandad–he himself was a slave); he was laughed at, mocked, and tortured. Bilal was not rich. Yet, he was one of the most dignified humans to ever walk the face of the earth.
These clowns who live in the most industrialized nation on earth–who on any given day are wearing their rap video costumes that are valued at more than what i’ve spent on clothes in the past three to five years–have no excuse for their deplorable behavior, and we as Muslims have no excuse trying to defend them.
December 7, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Firstly, I have not read every comment on this post, but i would just like to mention something that i was cruoius as to what some people would say about it. I was thinking today, about this whole ‘ghetto mentality’ situation. And i came to the conclusion that if you want to keep or remove, or avoid, muslim youth form getting taken in by this culture that was placed here. Wouldn’t it be smarter to NOT worry about getting them out or making them avoid it, but to tell them why it is wrong in the first place? Isn’t it better to teach these youth why a certain mentality or culture is destructive?
I personally, don’t fully know the ins and outs of this entier issue. And i am looking at it from the point of view of…an ‘addiction’ of sorts. What i see is a culture which is so obviously destructive to humans, while at the same time very pleaseing to the mind sets of the youth that are attractied to it. In a simple form, if you take your average, “ghetto mentality” inflicted youth [wether muslim or not] who has grown up and become part of this culture, and maby, just maby even glorify it. And tell them to leave it, leave what they grew up with…Without explaining to them the WHY, or the purpose for them…do you think you will have a very receptive crowd?
As i said before, i don’t know the whole issue, but when i would observe, a person getting involved with something, that was destructive to themselves, wether they relized it or not. And someone else trying to remove them from it, often times, the Reason, or PURPOSE as to why they should leave it, was left out. To me, what i see when i look at what is going on, is i see a people who are addicted to something, a way of life, a subculture [well, a culture really], and the only way for them to leave it is for them to relize it is bad. And not jsut ‘oh yeah, do this crap and you get in toruble’…but to relize that this culture is destructive to the humans who are in it, why it is destructive…and even more, WHAT it means to be in a destructive environment, some people, i feel, don’t even know what harm is if it isn’t pshyical. They see what is going on around them [some of them], and get angry and do what they do so on and so forth, because they were never taught what harm is, and what harm them, and how to deal with it.
As much as i hate to say it, humans are simple. If you plan to help a people who are stuck on something, you have to be simple about it [and yes, we are dealing with very simple people [and this is directed at the youth involved as a whole, not just 'youth who are stuck in ghettosville, who just happen to be muslim']] explaine to the people what harm is, why you should avoid it, and then tell them what is harmful. And how to avoid those things. In each case.
In short, if you want to help people, you sometimes have to tell them why they need help. And if the person cannot grasp that, you have to go down a notch and teach them what is harm.
Remember, Allah guides whom ever he wills.
December 7, 2007 at 11:30 pm
I wonder where people draw the correlation between the spread of crime and hip hop music. Can you guys find data to back it up?
December 8, 2007 at 4:39 am
Riiiiiight! All evil spews from the black man, no I get it. This has to be one of the most cockamamie BS statements I’ve heard in a long while.
Weren’t it not for those degenerate Nigras those decent white folks wouldn’t be acting like that.
Maurisco please!
Rap culture is an excuse for dysfunctional behavior, not a cause.
December 8, 2007 at 4:51 am
@ Dawud
That is an excellent idea. I wonder if there are any manuals from the FOI/MGT still around that could be “sunnified” for community development purposes?
You are on spot about the dignity aspect being the cause for jealousy of the NOI. one thing that Farrakhan has never allowed his detractors to do is to act as if they have the moral high ground to dictate to him what is wrong with the AA community at large.
December 8, 2007 at 8:12 pm
I get very irritated when people try to blame rap or hip-hop for many of the social ills present in the African-American community.
For instance, parallels can be drawn between the plight of Indian-Muslims and African-Americans in general.
Below is an excerpt of the article “The New Untouchables” from the Washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/01/AR2007110101035.html .
“Consider these figures: Fifty-two percent of Muslim men are unemployed, compared with 47 percent of dalit men.
Unemployment among Muslim women is 91 percent, compared with 77 percent among dalit women.
Forty-eight percent of Muslims
older than 46 can’t read or write.
Though they make up 11 percent of the population, Muslims account for 40 percent of the prison population.
They hold only 4.9 percent of government jobs and only 3.2 percent of the jobs in the country’s security agencies.”
Can someone please tell me what does rap have to do the situation of the Indian-Muslims?
In the “French suburbs”, you will find a large population of mostly Muslims of North-African and West-African origins. Some are immigrants but many are French citizens (descendants of workers brought in after the second world war). They live in “ghetto like” conditions. Below are some if the problems that are in the suburbs:
High rate of violence and crime,
High unemployment,
Violence against women is prevalent,
Poor living conditions in public housing,
Poorly maintained buildings,
Poor public services,
Bad schools,
High school drop out rate,
Constant police harassment,
Higher rate of divorce and lack of stability in relationships,
loss of parental authority and the list goes on …
Doesn’t that sound awfully familiar to inner-city conditions? These problems did not suddenly appear after the advent of rap but were there decades before.
December 8, 2007 at 9:39 pm
How can you be ignorant enough to not see how music effects people? Music is the most effective thing in most peoples lives. It is thier life, and it defines them. When you are living a crappy environment, and the only stimuli you can reach is via rap music. Then that is what you are going to take.
Your willing to tell me that a kid will learn from his father that treating woman like garbage is alright..and do that, and that a kid will learn from thier mother that sleeping around, and going from man to man is alright..and do that. But you will deny that a person will listen to what a rapper says and follow thier example?
You have to remember, people for the most part, are simple, they do things by example. If a person grows up in an environment where the example or method shown to attain money is by selling drugs, then you can be assured that, that person will most likely sell drugs when they get older.
If a person listens to a rapper all day talking about getting money, living in the ghetto, and having a rebellous attitude…then that is what the will live by, because it is what they know.
It is foolish to say music doesn’t effect people. Isn’t the purpose of rap music to get a message out to others? Isn’t it true, most of those messages are about dwelling on the situation, rather then getting OUT of the situation? Do you think that rappers send a message, without expecting others to hear it? And maby even accept it and follow it.
Anyone who knows music..knows that, that is kinda the purpose of lyrics. To send a message. When you listen to a nasheed or mahdeeh…arn’t you listening to it because it has a posative message, calling you to worship Allah, or calling you to enjoyn the good and forbid the evil? Isn’t that what any honest muslim parent would want thier kids to hear?..a message about Worshiping Allah?
Why do they want thier kids to hear this message? Because they know thier children will take it in, and most likely do it.
The diffrence between a parental example and a lyrical example..is one has music behind it. but you still here the message..and being human, many will accept it.
That is common sense.
December 8, 2007 at 11:59 pm
@anon1234
“Rap music is an excuse for dysfunctional behaviour, not a cause”
Would you say bad parenting is an excuse for dysfunctional behaviour? Certainly you won’t say that, correct?
And if a parent is not around, and the children take other people as role models…such as Lil Wayne or these cats like Lil Jon, or even Three Six as thier mommy and daddy figures….doesn’t that, therefor, mean that rap music impacts the youth dramaticly?
The point is, you cannot say Rap doesn’t impact youth. Because it does.
What does the actions and views of the youth produce?…Culture.
Id say that yes, rap music does effect the culture, it effects the youth, the ones who grow up and change the culture every generation. they change it with thier mannerisms and thier actions. …And thief beliefs.
Like i mentioned before, children will look up to someone, wether its a parental ’someone’ or a lyrical ’someone’ And they will immitate what they see and hear.
It seems people have forgotten one little effect of this culture…it degrades the mind. You have 20 year olds with 10 year old mentalities.
Btw, when i say children, i mean people from ages 8-20ish….and sometimes, this culture effects those even older. [and younger]
December 9, 2007 at 7:53 am
Margari,
Isn’t it enough to drive thru any black ghetto and see the correlation between rap and crime? The dress, the lingo, the attitude of the natives looks like a giant rap video. You have to ask yourself: “Is this life imitating art or art imitating life.” Go to your local prison and find me five young African-American criminals from the hood who detest rap music. Rap music IS black youth (criminal) culture. If you don’t listen to rap, then you ain’t black (in that dark twisted world)!
Don’t Muslims know the significance of poetry (combined with music) on the person’s psyche. The Muslim scholars have written extensive books on the influence of poetry on the human heart. All day long–when they wake up in the morning, in the car, at work (standing on the street corner playing Mr. Pharmacist), on the rap videos when they get home, going to sleep and getting this stuff poured into their minds subliminally–folks who iz ignint as dirt are lissinin’ to: “Shoot a n!gga–and slap a h0e!” To a beat and enchanting rhythms aren’t going to be influence by such conditioning?!?
Come on folks–let’s keep it real. The rap crap is nothing other than BRAIN WASHING and social engineering. Feed the n!ggas #$%& with pornographic lyrics, giv’em guns, watch them fill the neighborhoods up with feral bastard offspring who slaughter each other over colored rags–and the one’s that survive will give the rednecks at Wackenhut jobs. Didn’t Malcolm break all this down 40+ years ago?!? How dumb can folks be not to X-ray this thing, for it’s as transparent as a hoochie momma’s summertime outfit!
Simply ask your typical rap addict to leave out listening to the monkey music for three weeks–just as an exercise in self-discipline (you’ll earn the reward of forbidding the evil). I have NEVER seen a rap addict take me up on this issue. The fact these people don’t even have enough self-control to leave the music alone shows the pernicious influence it has on the human psyche.
American Muslims need to WAKE UP and understand that this savage mushrik gutter culture has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DIGNITY OF THIS DEEN. Muslims should DISTINGUISH themselves from those who promote haraam and kufr–furthermore, Muslims are OBLIGATED to speak out against those who call people to sinning and transgression. May Allah make us the heroes of humanity and give us the strength to stand up for the Truth.
December 9, 2007 at 8:19 am
J,
I DEFINITELY didn’t say that all evil comes from black men. Have i not repeatedly praised Malcolm X and said that is the starting point for African-Americans? White folks have their own array of moral and spiritual diseases; white folks–as a culture–are not gravitating towards Islam, but are outright hostile to what Allah Revealed, and they take pride in that. This shows the spiritual depravity of that tribe… but white folks ain’t the topic of this thread. Just for the future: please don’t selectively read my posts. I am fair and balanced in my posts.
On the other hand, to PRETEND that this (c)rap culture is not a significant means by which the youth of black America are influenced–and many totally molded–is simply dishonest. We should be striving to help the black mushrik community–not by condoning their savagery, but by setting a new and higher standard for all Americans (or wherever you may be) to live by–and that is done by calling the people to Islam. Certainly, the Prophet would never have condoned the behavior of these people , and nor should we.
December 9, 2007 at 12:52 pm
The basis of Abdul Jabbar’s arguments has gone UNANSWERED. None amongst us deny the negative implications of rap music on black culture or the fact that its popularity has gone global. We know the negative impact the music has on ignorant black youths. However, Abdul Jabbar’s has systematically dissected the degenerate nature of several ethnicities i.e. the underworlds of Russians, Irish, Chinese, Italian, Arabs, and Spanish culture and to blame rap music as somehow being responsible for such degeneration is preposterous.
The obvious answer is each and every ethnicity or people have developed a degenerate underworld, in which a minority of their most ignorant people fall victim to.
What’s next the love of Mafia Movies and the Sopranos are to blame for the Mafia with Italians, and can we now extrapolate that to blame them for the organized criminal element of all ethnicities, surely you are under estimating the degenerate nature of all KUFFAR societies.
Lastly, despite the direction of the comments on this blog, the African-Americans have been enslaved, segregated, given substandard education, housing and purposely and systemically targeted for drugs.. etc….etc… etc so what’s the excuse for all the other ethnicities?
Lets remember, no matter how affluent or sophisticated a country is, whether its economically, militarily, or technologically, if they don’t believe that Allah (ta ala) is God and Muhammad (sas) is his Messenger, they are in a state of JAHLIYYAH and without God-given guidance these societies will degenerate with 100% accuracy, without instigation of another Kuffar society or culture.
May Allah (ta ala) guide us all. AMEEN
December 9, 2007 at 5:43 pm
ASA,
That is a good question. I’m not sure if the FOI/MGT had training manuals or not. I did hear that they had lesson books and “actual facts,” but I heard that most of its contexts were mixture of myths and scientific facts pulled from Britannica.
I’m sure some of the elders, who used to be in the NOI would know if there were any such manuals.
For clarification, I was not inferring that we have some type of quasi-paramilitary unit under the “sunnah.” I was referring to orientation classes regarding responsibilities towards family and society within the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah to inform our practice of Islam within the American context.
These classes are no less important than having fiqh classes about ibaadaat that masajid have.
December 10, 2007 at 9:23 am
One of the things that I have admired about the NOI, is that they never tolerated brothers doing foul things like cheating, lying, and womanizing. A brother would get kicked out in a minute. Some end up in the random small ghetto mosque or a new-agey sufi mosque. I’ve seen more than one former NOI brother have a free for all in mosques that tolerate lack of discipline, using their dawa sticks whenever they can.
December 10, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Swathmoor:
Your statements resonante with somewhat of a racist tone. Just letting you know. “Monkey Music”, “Black Savagery?” Yeah, I’m really going to take anything YOU say seriously.
December 10, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Swarthmoor,
Kudos for what you have said and how you have maintained your composure. You know you are hitting the subject where it counts when people start ascribing things to you that you did not say.
No one claimed that rap music was the source of the issue, rather it is a symptom of a diseased culture.
Rap music does not make Arabs (mostly likely North Africans, not Arabs) gang rape women in Paris, but it certainly DOES egg them on. The problem here is that some people are getting very defensive about the situation rather than sitting down and talking about the situation rationally. The point is that Rap music, and the scene around it, is universally negative. It doesn’t matter whether you head to Paris, Marseilles, New York or Los Angles, rap and the culture it breeds around it is a death trap.
I had to laugh when someone asked if The Sopranos was getting American Italians to go out and kill people. I guess if Italian Americans watched 5-6 hours of The Sopranos a day and acted out their life in accordance with it I would agree, but to bring this up is to actually work to divert what we are talking about.
Lets look at someone like Snoop Dog. The man was pretty much an unknown outside of rap scenes until he was charged with murder. It was this murder charge that poll vaulted this guy to fame. Yeah, you heard right, a murder charge is what gave this guy fame, wealth and everything he has now. What does it say about a culture and a music scene when a murder charge makes you rich? In this case it isn’t even about African American culture, this is about American culture. A MURDER CHARGE makes you famous and a millionaire? What is WRONG with us as a people?
I heard the other day about a rapper in prison for a serious crime, don’t remember which, but he was recording his new CD over the phone in prison. Pundits said that the fact that he was in prison doing the recording would probably make the record a big seller. Imagine that, being a felon, being involved in murders, drug crimes and the like makes you famous?
Look at R Kelly! The man was on tape doing some really nasty things to very young girls, yet it hasn’t hurt his career at all. If anything, his sales have gone UP since the news went out.
This isn’t entirely about the African American scene, this is about America as a whole and how some of the most vile behavior can actually be used as a selling point and make you VERY rich.
We live in a very sick society and it is only getting worse. Some people when confronted with uncomfortable facts just want to run or change the subject. I love the old playground rebuttal being used here: “I know you are, but what am I”?
December 10, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Abu Sinan,
Methinks Swarthmoor is a socket puppet for another poster actually :-)
His/Her writing bears a marked likeness to another’s :-)
December 10, 2007 at 3:12 pm
@Swarthmoor,
My previous post was a joke.
December 10, 2007 at 3:48 pm
When you guys start talking about the “Human Scum” and “Savagery” of the CEO at BMG records, or the degenerate nature of Sumner Redstone and Viacom for their perpetuation of videos, or the base vile sleeze at Warner Music group, maybe I’ll start taking you seriously.
When you start shouting out Clive Davis, founder of Arista records or Jimmy Lovine, founder of interscope for the lowlife scum that they are…maybe I’ll give you some credibility. I mean we are concerned about the people who actually produce, distibute, control, and profit from this vile degenerate “black” music, right?
So lets talk about the degenerate scum bag low life white boys selling this filth like the sleezy high priced white trash that they are, aye?
Why don’t we start there and talk about the affects of hip hop on the global community.
Yeah…its Snoop Dog’s fault.
This is almost becoming laughable.
December 10, 2007 at 4:22 pm
“One of the things that I have admired about the NOI, is that they never tolerated brothers doing foul things like cheating, lying, and womanizing”
….except Elijah Muhammad
December 10, 2007 at 4:41 pm
We don’t talk about record companies, because they arn’t the ones who write the rap. They arn’t the ones who are even relevent at this point. Sure, they may be doing negative things, but they arn’t the ones people want to grow up to be like.
Secondly, if i recall, this topic wasn’t about italian indians or african muslims….it was about the ‘ghetto tribal culture’ Which is something that, and its no secret. Developed in the black community. And in that, i am refering to the Black American community….in all honesty, africans..real africans, act less savage than this. The Vietnamese [also known as the niggers of the asian world[no offense to any vietnamese posting or reading...but it is the truth..]] are less savage than this.
No one said rap caused this eniter problem….What ever Allah wills, wether it is good or bad…it what will be. A leaf doesn’t fall, lest Allah wills for it. But, this rap music, is a method used to destroy the youth. How do we know this? Because we have a big lab called america, and a test dish called the ghetto .
This isn’t about racism, stop pulling out that old, illrelevant card. Don’t talk about slavery either…that is illrelevent and history. Old black men, who grew up with real racism. Do not act like this. The people we are talking about, probably do not know if the ameircan version fo slavery was 200 years ago..or 2000 years ago. they probably don’t even know they are from africa…or where africa is on a map. They have likely never seen The Klan, they probably don’t know what the Aryan Nation is…racism, is not part of it.
If you want to talk about racism, talk about these clown ass preachers, who claime to help the black community, yet only help when its a black baby that has been stolen. Yet is no where to be found when little white Alice was kidnapped. Thats a good example to set for the black youth isn’t it? Only appearing when the issue involves black people? A sure fire way to develop a them/us relationship where it is not needed.
Really, this ‘racism/slavery’ excuse is getting old…and is completely illrelevent.As it effects no human being living today.
If you wish to talk about now..the thing YOU are refering to as racism. Then you need to stop calling it was it is not…its not racism, its simply social engineering. That isn’t even done by white people. Its done by a rich arrogant people who have been on this earth some 5000 years and have killed most of the prophets, including our beloved Rasululah [May Allah Raise His Rank]. You give white people too much credit, when they are the ones who are getting played the most. By being gullableified [yes, its not a word] into feeling so sorry for everyone else “because they are such a bad race of people”, that they are UNABLE to see any harm. If you want to know why the Uncle Tom apologetic movement exists…white people.
But anyways, i myself have went WAY offtopic…
Racism…and certainly not Slavery…do not in almost any way effect the youth of today. Television/Music/Media….the main source of input into thier brains…is what effects them. Being blasted with propaganda is what caused them to be the way they are…
Look at Rwanda…a lead put out propaganda about a tribe of people, and another tribe wiped them out, killed every single one of them, because of a few lies that a leader told them. Hell, not to sound cliche…but hitler, one guy, used propaganda to get an antier nation of people to hate the jews. There is a guy in North Korea..a short fellow with a crazy hair style…named Kimberly. Who has brainwashed an entier nation of people into thinking that the world is out to get them, and that thier ‘dear leader’ will protect them.
And honestly, if you REALLY want to look at the effects of propaganda, through entertainment and media…simply look at india….millions of people worshiping monkeys, rats and cockroaches. Starving themselves to put food into a temple for rats to gang up on and devour. Don’t the Gurus tell them they will be reincarnated? Thats a lie. Don’t they worship people, humans, who lived long long ago, that they have, over the years, diefied in thier own mind? Wasn’t it propaganda that made the people build the first statues in the time of Idris? And wasn’t it propaganda that made them next generation worship them? Causeing the first human kufr?
All of that, is caused by, usually..one person, who is charsimatic…that gets people to listen to him, and people, in thier nature..are followers, and they will follow. People do not look at the qualities or beleifs or agenda or a person, they see a charismatic person, whos word is like honey.
Of course rappers effect the youth. If a preacher can convince his congragation that he is a prophet, and that they need to go to wako and hold up in a base and kill police..so that he can write his book….then a rapper can certainly convince an already messed up mind that its ok to sell cocain and smack women.
Whew, that was alot.
December 10, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Abdul Jabbar,
When you start throwing terms like “white boy” into the conversation you out yourself for the racist tendencies you still hold onto.
Anyway, I’ll be the first to condemn the fat cats in the corporate offices who make money off of these scumbags, and there is no other word for them. Scumbags……it is what they are. Doesnt matter whether it is Snoop, Kid Rock or Enimem.
The problem is that these “white boys” at the corporate offices did not create the music, they did not create the ghetto from which it came. They did nothing more than to exploite something which was already there.
They are pimps, but what they are pimping wasnt their creation, and now with the rappers themselves putting the music out, the formerly pimped are now doing the pimping.
You can put your head in the sand, but it doesnt solve the issues. The problems would be there with or without the music companies.
Now that I have condemned the “white boys” can you bring yourself to finally address the issue at hand or will you try to pass it off on something else again.
The FACT is that the rap music is all about low life, drug dealing, often murderous scum. You can try to blame that on whomever you whish, but that does little to address the issues that created the problem in the first place.
That is the one thing I respected NoI about. They certainly blamed those high up who benefited from the nonsense, but they sure didnt run from their responsibility to try and clean it up.
December 10, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Ismael,
For now, i don’t want to go far into the situation in India, but let me say that the decline of the conditions of the Muslims in India i would say are inversely related to their decline in obedience to Allah. The fact that we are being humiliated by a bunch of mushriks there is because of our lack of knowledge of traditional Islamic scholarship–and the implementation thereof. Poverty–in and of itself is not the problem. The Sahabahs (vast majority of them) were poor–yet they were the best of humanity after the Prophets.
December 10, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“….except Elijah Muhammad”
Hahaha, Musa, I was going to write that. Yusuf Bey’s many women at Your Black Muslim Bakery was a running joke. But then again, he was kicked out of NOI
I wonder why all the Middle Class white kids who buy Eminem haven’t tried to murder their mom and wife. I wonder why they all haven’t started gang banging. Why is rap music disproportionately affecting disenfranchized youth, but 50 cent is virtually harmless for Tom in the suburbs?
I am not arguing that popular cultural productions doesn’t have an effect people. Movies, magazines, television, music, does shape people conceptions about manhood, femininity, relationships, adulthood, and respect for authority. Music is a powerful force, and I’m deeply saddened that so much of African American cultural production is negative or completely lacks substance. But at the same time, this music reflects the social conditions that it arose from. I think that healthy homes, education and development, and hope is far more powerful than some fly by night popular rapper.
Also, I think it is important to discern the difference between positive hip hop and rap. I know for me artists like Poor Righteous teachers, Rakim, Brand Nubian and KMD (even though many were not orthodox but 5%ers) dropped seeds that helped sprout my interest in Islam. Artists like Common, Mos Def, and Lupe Fiasco still inspire.
December 10, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Actionable,
We live in an era of general moral degeneration. This always the moor proves the Prophet truthful for he said:
“Each succeeding generation would get worse (until the return of Jesus).”
So that is just the way it is. In regards to the reprobate cultures of other people, with the exception of the the Italian mafia culture, ain’t nobody tryna imitate them. However, you have an enormous number of youth (Muslim youth, too) who are imitating this gutter culture rap thing.
You have low lives in all cultures, but USUALLY the mainstream of that culture censures anti-social/sociopathic behaviors. However, with hip hop, we find African-Americans–and even AFRICAN-AMERICAN MUSLIMS–defending it!!! As degenerate as white America is, it doesn’t make heroes out of inbred Ozarkian meth-heads (at least not in its mainstream culture). And even if white America did make heroes out of such people, that is no reason for black Americans (much less Muslims) to do the same with their own retrograde misfits.
As Muslims, we know that the external circumstances of a person are largely the reflection of the internal circumstances of a person. Black people have been getting humiliated and degraded because they OBVIOUSLY AIN’T DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. The lowlife degenerate underclass exists because of their diseased out hearts. It is our duty, as Muslims, to set an example for such people and uplift them. But if the Muslims are imitating them, have the same values as them, and suffer from the same pathologies as them, then who is going to save these people?
December 10, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Dawud,
I plan on having some long talks in a couple of weeks with some (real) Sunni Muslims about what they used to do in the so-called Nation of Islam. I was actually talking to a Brother yesterday about the need for “marriage counseling” classes before getting married–in particular, for the youth. The Nation has a lot that we could benefit from (when given the correct perspective).
December 10, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Abdul-Jabbar,
People who have no diginity–breed their offspring at a 70% clip OOW, willing wallow in ignorance, walk around nekkid, tatted up, and covered with body piercings and take pride in all of that are like the savages of old.
We all need to be clear, when Uthman Dan Fodio was taking care of business in West Africa, he did not look at his idol and demonic jinn worshipping neighbors as his “beautiful black brothers.” He saw them for what they were: mushriks. He was clear that he was not one of them, and that “his people,” i.e., the Muslims were not “them.” I am confident that Uthman dan Fodio had his griots compose poetry to humiliate the pagan tribes and their revolting practices and cultures–just as the Prophet did. Uthman dan Fodio invited the savages to Islam. Many accepted. Some did not, and those who didn’t, well we know what happened to them. Obviously, Muslims today in the West can’t do what Uthman Dan Fodio did as a last resort, but w