I saw a discussion over at TalkIslam, you know the site full of Muslims and pseudo-Muslims who wont be happy until their is a gay orgy in front of the kabbah, about a debate I had with Bin Gregory over whiteness and Islam in America. Bin Gregory argued then that to be white and Muslim was no different really than being in the Rotary Club or the 4-H or an Episcopalian I guess. Now, he has altered his thinking a little bit and focused on alienation in America which is a very real issue and I agree with his point for the most part that modern America has created a lot of people who are lost and in pain.
This is the comment I posted.
Let me give you one example. St. Louis has the largest Bosnian community in America. They are physically white but in St. Louis people do not consider them white. In Russia those from the Muslim regions even if white are called “blacks”. In the world of boxing there was always talk of the “great White Hope” who would come and save boxing by being the heavyweight champion ( hence the popularity in the 1980′s of Gerry Cooney). Today the heavyweight championship is shared by the white Ukrainian brothers, Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko, but they do not fit the bill.
Like I stated before I believe that white is based on what you are not and not on what you are and someone who lives a life according to the sunnah is one of those things you cannot be. I know of one young white man who was murdered in prison just for being white and a Muslim and I have experienced many problems myself from whites over my Islam.
Regarding Willow I do kind of see what you are saying; but I think whites run from their whiteness when it is so important to who they are. Many of the whites who disagreed with what I had written themselves have adopted other cultures, which is the case for most white Muslims I know, and many will not even say they are white. They will say ” I am human” or ” I am white” and in this they are somewhat conforming my argument while verbally disagreeing with it.
The reasons white Muslims don’t want to talk about race is because they don’t want to draw attention to there whiteness and act like it has no bearing on who they are. But, when you look at it, how many white Muslims do you know married to other white Muslims? Of all the white Muslims I have met over the years I only know of two such couples. Then ask yourself how many white Muslims do you know walking around speaking in Desi accents, only eating Arab food, or whatever?
I believe that to be Muslim and to be a white American is not possible from a sociological standpoint. However, once entering Islam, whites tend to gravitate to certain places.
The bulk of white Muslims are from liberal educated backgrounds and I only know of a handful of white Muslims from working-class or poor background like me. Most have some level of “white guilt” ( if they are male they tend to be about as manly as these guys on American Idol) and have somewhat of a love for political correctness and moral and cultural relativism. So, once in the deen, many gravitate towards those Muslim movements which allow them to not alter their lifestyle and not change their liberal world view to conform to Islamic teachings.
The Last Poets said ” the white man has a God complex”. I think this is true and that is why you see white Muslims gravitating to progressive Islam and fringe deviant groups; because they are too arrogant to submit but rather believe they are a gift to the ummah and the ummah is in need of the liberal white man’s ( and woman’s) saving grace to reform it ( and they often get used by those trying to throw white faces out to the media or those with inferiority complexes in the community like many here on TalkIslam who went to the university and got pimped). So, you see them filtering Islam through the West.
Not only are a lot of white Muslims too arrogant to submit and thinking they are smarter than everyone else; but many, in the “I’m spiritual and not religious mode” are too narcissistic to worship anyone but themselves and do not want to curtail their behavior to comply with the shariah. They are too good, too enlightened to submit like some dumb dark creature of the Third World in need , as they see it, not of the mercy of Allah but of the white man’s knowledge . Most, at the end of the day, only worship themselves and like the millions of young secular educated brats you will find in yuppie neighborhoods like Williamsburgh Brooklyn and Hyde Park Chicago they see themselves as the center of the universe. Many were raised by hippie parents who never told them no and never spanked that butt. So, in Islam, they also cannot accept no that’s haram.
They reek of arrogance ion many ways that they do not see. African-American as a rule never had a problem with Islamic orthodoxy, using Arabic phrases and names, and changing there names; but all of these things many white converts I think are too arrogant to do. They say ” I’m not some ni%#$ from East St. Louis who is going to run around calling myself Mustafa I am Blake!” and while the whole ummah says Allah many white converts see themselves as too good for that.
One last thing and I say this because I only fear Allah and as someone who comes from a white family and thanks Allah for the blessing of being led to Islam and does not seek peace with this society, as almost all the mainstream American-Muslim leaders do, but wants to change this society. Whites have always fought this deen, this is fact. From the wars with the early Muslims to the Crusades to Colonialism to the Zionist/Crusader/Secular Humanist Alliance of today the White West has always been a thorn in the side of the ummah and fought to keep the ummah down. This is why people like Hamza Yusuf are fooling themselves to believe there is some kind of spin you can out on the deen to make people who have a hatred of Muslims in their DNA friends.
Furthermore, if we do not draw the distinction between Islam and the White West, we can not call a spade and spade and say that the basis of this spcoey and its cultural norms are Satanic and it is they who need Islam and not us in need of theior colinization.
“Bin Gregory argued then that to be white and Muslim was no different really than being in the Rotary Club or the 4-H or an Episcopalian I guess.”
For many it isn’t. And I’ve seen the same thing happen amongst upper-class, educated blacks who accept Islam by the way. If you just see Islam as some sort of “spiritual path,” but not really a system or way of life — then you won’t have any problem blending in; you will be just like Joey the vegetarian and Crystal the Buddhist. Islam will be some fun, quirky thing you do and for some reason want to be an authority on. Hijab? Nah, you don’t need that. Jihad? That’s only a spiritual fight against your negative thoughts. Interfaith? Of course — that’s mandatory. Will Christians or Jews go to the hellfire? Absolutely not, according to them since at the core they believe that Islam is just one of many paths that all lead to the same place.
And they will be propped up by leadership and actually encouraged to speak about important topics, even if they’ve only been Muslim for a few months. I can think of some ‘progressive’ thinkers with multiple books and a Ph.D., yet still can’t recite Al-Fatihah even remotely well; in fact it’s embarrassing.
Again though, I see this as a class thing. There’s many blacks doing the same stuff.
Subhan’Allah, brother, yours and Bin Gregory’s posts on this subject have said things so well. I don’t always agree with you but…I had originally signed up to write on the topic then decided to pass because honestly I’m a) tired of talking about it (it’s something I end up having to discuss too much in Real Life) and b) just didn’t know what to SAY. I am having such a hard time articulating what it’s like for me. But I do have to say it’s refreshing to see someone from a similar background (poor, convert, etc.) discuss these issues in such a straightforward manner. Just wanted to say thank you and give you props since there are so few people willing to tackle this issue so directly and eloquently.
to be white and Muslim was no different really than being in the Rotary Club or the 4-H or an Episcopalian
lol! Let me restate my position: Being white is a matter of skin tone, it is not a culture or state of mind, except with regard to the issue of the privileges that accrue to it. White men, men mind you, don’t lose that privilege automatically if at all. You say you have gotten into fights with white people over your Islam, but in all honesty akhi, I get the feeling you’d be getting into fights with people if you were Jehovah’s Witness too, and I think we can agree that they’re still white. The culture(s) or state(s) of mind that whites have, *putting aside white privilege and its ramifications, which I don’t mean to minimize*, is American. Now, you can be critical of, opposed to or passionately, thoroughly against any aspect of the broader culture, but that doesn’t make you any less an American while doing so. What you and I are opposed to are very real problems that we see in American culture. But you don’t escape from the larger context by critiquing a portion of it. You may hate the rampant homosexuality, but you still eat at McDonalds.
Look, you accuse other white converts of running away from their whiteness and their American culture, and yet it is you who is saying that hatred of the deen runs in their DNA! In their DNA, Umar? Does hatred of the deen run in your DNA?
Really, I can’t help but see these mythical white boys who only eat Arab food as taking you up on your own advice. If the whole system is Satanic, then so is the Big Mac. If the Big Mac is ok, then you are not opposed to everything in this country, and you would sway a lot more minds if you could see that small distinction.
“people who have a hatred of Muslims in their DNA”
You should revise this statement.
As Salaamu Alaikum Umar, Malik from http://www.trillstory.com checking in.
So much of what you highlight is true and important, in that it needs to be discussed and dealt-with, no doubt. There are a few things I’d like to introduce into the discussion. #1. I hope none of us have forgotten that eemaan is a gift from Allaah Himself, it is He who opens the hearts to belief in Islaam. I hope that in the debates raging around all of our social and political issues, none of us forgets that. #2 Islaam essentially is about getting to the Jennah, and may Allaah make that easier for us all, that’s the primary struggle, the secondary struggle, that is waging jihaad against oppression and injustice while working to establish the sharee’ah, amounts to creating an environment, a society, where the pursuit of the primary objective is paramount and protected. #3 The transition from whatever you were to being a practicing Muslim is hard on everybody, black and white. But I agree with you, I think being “white” is not being part of a particular ethic grouping, but rather it is the end result of a Euro-American child internalizing a very twisted, dark and bloody inheritance and so, if we look at it like that, no doubt, you cannot be “white”, with all its social, political and even spiritual implications and a true, sincere, practicing Muslim at the same time. When I was first introduced to Islaam, back in those days, in that environment, learning about history from any perspective other than the Euro-centric white supremacist one, and learning about the social, political, cultural situation in the States, going deep into its history, etc. and learning about the Deen, where all wrapped up together, so while we read the Qur’aan, we also read the Autobiography of Malcom X, They Came Before Columbus, Before the Mayflower, Iceman Inheritance, The Isis Papers, works by Haki Madhubuti, etc. And while I understand now that that is indeed a very unorthodox way to learn anything about Islaam, it had a very humanizing effect upon me and my consciousness. So if the Euro-American brothers and sisters who convert to Islaam trully want to be “just human” they are going to have to address head-on, the way this society has conditioned them and miseducated them and how to identify all these themes of white supremacy that run through this society and how they have been affected and are still affected by them. So for example, though you might enjoy it at the start, when you see all these immigrant Muslims fawning over you, the new convert, and not doling out that same “love” to the African American brother who took his shahada that same Jumaah, you have to reject it and stop it, because its destroying you and your Islaam. But my main point bro. Umar, is that I think you are going really hard on them. Perhaps you might want to try to offer them some suggestions that will assist in their transition from being “white”, which in reality is like a religion itself, to being the “human” practicing Muslims they think they are…what do you think man?
So where do they go? The immigrants will only feed their sickness because of their own inferiority complexes. The Sufis will accomodate and tell them their fine. If they come into the city they’ll feel isolated from the experience informing so many of the brothers there. So what becomes of them if they are sincere? I sometimes look at the white brothers and sisters with a little bit of pity, and may Allaah forgive me for that if I’m wrong. Because, really, where would, let’s say, “Joe the Plumber” go, if he became Muslim?
Malik
Your right Peter, I should say “cultural DNA”, I am not a subscriber of the Dr. Yaqoub theory. bin Gregory, I am definitely not opposed to everything in this country; but those things that conflict with Islam have to go.
You should never let anyone speak on Islam if he is not qualified to do so.
Islam is the only path to salvation, Hamza Yusuf is very ambiguos in this issue. he needs to clarify his position in this matter. In many of his talks he says christian and jews are on the same path.
Salaam,
Maybe it’s a bit different where you live, but I’ve never met any middle-class white converts. Every single convert I’ve ever known is working class. So although you seem to believe your working-class heritage is something unusual, it’s actually the norm in most of the US.
As for those middle class kids you seem to despise, they’re not unusual either. They read a book of Sufi poetry, call themselves Muslim for awhile and (most) eventually move on. Let them be, it’s a normal part of late adolescence-to experiment with unfamiliar religions- and should be of no concern to you or anyone else, as those kids have almost zero effect on anyone outside their circle of acquaintances.
And it’s unfortunate that being educated somehow doesn’t conform to your vision of “manliness.” I’m not sure whether that’s just class resentment, or if you really feel that education makes men weak. I’d remind you that our beloved Prophet stressed education for ALL Muslims and that he was often accused of being effeminate. Perhaps, were he here today, he wouldn’t meet your standards of masculinity, which seem to be formed of an unfortunate combination of ideas too often found in Hemingway novels and Charles Bronson films.
Inshaallah, as you get older, you’ll gain bit of perspective and develop tolerance for the silliness and phases that people go through.
Ayah,
I don’t know, ask Amad,
On the other issue I have lived in several different cities as a Muslim and what I have written about seems to be the norm. Regarding education, my only problem is that our Muslims seem to go to the university and want to filter Islam through the university and not the other way around. There is nothing unmanly about education; but there are many un-Islamic teachings at the university and other deviant teachings and many Muslims I know would have been better off never going to college after the way they came out.
One more thing, I may be older than you think I have a child who is almost grown, and some of what I speak of is not phases but refers to Muslims with high positions in the community who in many ways have exploited their whiteness.
Really some great comments here, especially Malek. I want to just step back and say I should stop quibbling about semantics with you Umar. I know exactly what you mean when you talk about white culture. White supremacy is intertwined enough with American culture that it is not a great leap to characterize the whole show as white. It’s just that speaking about culture in racial tones doesn’t make your critique of American culture any clearer, and it confuses white converts about where they lie. The negative aspects of American culture, what you call the White West, can be unlearned – the color of one’s skin cannot be changed. Also, just to be clear, I don’t believe that a white, practicing, muslim man will not get pushback, even hostility, from mainstream American culture. Islamophobia is real. I’m simply saying any hostility they get is aimed at their *values*, not because they no longer see them as being physically a euro-man. So yeah. I think I’ll stop there before we go round and round again. Congratulations on the birth of your daughter and may Allah bless you with many more. I’m expecting number 7 at the end of this year, inshallah. I’ve got the kafirs shaking in their boots.
One last thing: here’s what I originally wrote in case people want to see the start of this discussion.
I find these discussions on race interesting. Being in America, you can’t get away from it. I think i’ve said here before that when a “white person” (meaning, Eurocentric white American), becomes Muslim AND PRACTICES THE SUNNAH, he ceases being “white.” Similarly the (practicing) Muslims of Europe have not been Athens/Romacentric but Mecca/Madinacentric. These are two civilizations on two TOTALLY DIFFERENT trajectories that operate on two totally different assumptions about the nature of human purpose and existence.
For the white American when he embraces Islam, he relinquishes a lot. He has to admit that HIS ENTIRE CIVILIZATION is/was misguided. He has to admit that the heroes of “whiteness” are all–without any exception condemed to Hell (except for those who did not receive the Message of a Prophet). Black Americans don’t have to deal with this–for, afterall, what are they really giving up… Count Basie, Jackie Robinson, Al Sharpton, Booker T., and MLK? There simply isn’t much there in terms of history and culture if one leaves out Islam and quasi-Islam. Furthermore, black culture is contingent upon white culture. Black folks know that, and that is why embracing Islam (in a sense a “foreign culture”) is easy for them. It’s easy, for black folks to understand that something ain’t right about white folks from the gitty-up. Islam explains why white folks are the way they are in a humane and wholistic way. Their problem (white folks’) isn’t in their skin–their problem is IN THEIR CULTURE OF KUFR.
Another point: much of “whiteness” is predicated on its hatred of Islam. Even if we want to talk about Europe as a “continent,” we can see that this is part of the Crusader mentality which lies at the heart of th European identity. Any unindoctrinated child can see that Europe isn’t remotely a “continent”–it’s part of Asia. But the European side of Asia does distinguish itself from the Asian side of Asia in that the overwhelming majority of Euro-Asians are Christian (historically, speaking); whereas those to the immediate east of Europe are largely Muslim (and move to increasingly Muslim lands further east).
Also, in regards to “race,” the Muslims have been far more racially integrated that the Europeans. So much of the European identity has been based upon the preservation of “whiteness.” If you take away “whiteness,” you in essence, take away European culture. Non-white people do not carry forth the banner of whiteness/European culture–unless they suffer from inferiority complexes–for what person of color wants to attach themselves to a culture that has considered him subhuman?!? Muslims, NO DOUBT, have racial hang-ups, but Islam (as opposed to Eurocentricity) is not predicated on color.
I’ll throw this into the mix: being in the South, i’ve encountered a few of what one would call (white) “red-neck” Muslims. Not many, but a few. I find that their experience is different from what Umar describes as the hippy pseudo-muslim and from the blue collar urban white Muslim. As one can imagine, the families ain’t too happy about their conversions, so they face pressure. On the other hand, there are certain points that Muslims can exploit with this class of people (and i am not talking about the narrowest minded and lowest dregs amongst them).
For one, Muslims can discuss the obvious moral decline in the society. Unlike the utterly secularized metro-sexual, who has at no point in his life any relation to religion/religious based morality, the white country folk still have some sense of Christian morality. Another point is walking them thru how big-government is exploiting the poor working class–the bank bailout, Iraq and Afghanistan are immediate examples. We can also talk to them about how the media/education system is intentionally orchestrating a campaign to emasculate the white male. We can talk about who’s behind the media/academia–and one can add, the banking system (which is always a fun discussion with them–for many know but they feel they can’t say anything).
Muslims (particularly, African-American Muslims) can have with the relatively open-minded red neck a candid discussion on race that they feel they (country white folks) can’t have with anyone else (except the folks at Stormfront). That is, we (Muslims), hate the NAPs (Negro American Pagans) for pretty much the same reasons that they do (the criminality, pathologies, impulsive violence, laziness, etc.). But again, our hatred of them, like that of Athens/Romacentric folks, isn’t based on a person’s DNA–it is based upon their culture of kufr and transgression of Allah’s Laws.
Now keep in mind, i don’t think opening a da`wah table at the next NASCAR meet in Bristol, TN would be particularly fruitful. Nonetheless, there is a number of white folk from Middle America (and in the South), who are distraught over their churches and Christian doctrine. They see the society on an inevitable slide (by what we see of the obvious signs)–whether we are talking about its morality or its (in)ability to compete and maintain its current (pre-recession) standard of living in a global economy. There’s too much power being centralized in the national government. They hate liberals–largely for the right reasons. And Islam is being slandered and hammered in the media–well, the question should be why, and who is behind the media? No, i don’t see any mass conversion amongst such people, but there is an overlooked potential for da`wah among some of them, and they are not like the spoiled suburban class that Umar loves to hate.
With Allah is the success.
Since you have not been to university yourself, you cannot speak for the people who have been and came out “deviant” according to you, maybe its not the teachings they received but friends they kept or they have simply changed their outlook on certain issues like we do all the time.
As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,
In response to Ayah, I have met a few middle-class white Muslims and some of them have what I consider a stuck-up attitude towards “ethnic” Muslims, but not all. A fair number of white converts are working-class, though. (Check out my “white privilege” post which is still on my front page insha Allah.) I do think that more white converts is what will make Islam a mainstream religion in the UK and even the USA, but they will have to be ordinary people and not the “elite” (or a wannabe elite).
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This is probably the best post on the thorny subject of “whiteness” and Islam. The premise is, a religion’s value can be measured in its appeal to white Western liberals. By this yardstick, Islam doesn’t cut it. Buddhism and Hinduism can work — hey, the Beetles were into it — as long as they are “cleaned up” and reassembled for Western consumption. It’s hip, it’s trendy, and it’s a status symbol of one’s cosmopolitanism, one’s “open mind.”
But what is far worse IMO is the immigrant inferiority complex. The British had a saying when India gained “independence” : “we may be leaving but our ways will remain.”
They rather have biblical names than Qur’anic names, names that has been uttered by Allah to gibreel (alasalam) to the prophet mohammed (saw).
biblical names Qur’anic names
John Yahya
jessie, jesus… Isa
Joseph Yusuf.
Umar, Jamal, Yusuf, Aisha, Khadijah…etc are islamic names and they are also universal names, these names can be found all over the Muslim world from Eastern Europe to Mecca, from Africa to Pakistan.
salaam aleikum,
the only thing that i would add to this post is that the wealthy, suburban, and supposedly “highly educated” ABCDs (American Born Confused Desis/IndoPaks) follow in lockstep with what you have written of the so-called “celebrity” white converts. Like their Caucasian “pro-regressive” brethren they share a narcissistic sense of entitlement, belittle and mock Islamic movements and Muslims from overseas (especially if they espouse or call for issues or ideas which conflict with their lifestyle) and generally wish to change Islam to fit their worship of themselves, NOT the other way around (changing their life to SUBMIT into Islam and worship Allah (Swt)).
I don’t necessarily think that this is an issue of skin color but one of identity — if u adopt a secularized sense of self — Islam ceases to become a deen or complete way of life — but is a set of vacuous “spiritual” morals/new age maxims trotted out for solemn occassions — no different than what catholicism is for many lax catholics or judaism for secular, reform Jews. M-F you are a secular person living the good life, come friday, or sunday one has to feel “spiritual” and act the part.
salaam aleikum,
Kashif
Leila,
You do not have to have a PHD to know that much of what is being taught in the university is contrary to Islam. The textbooks are not hidden and the lectures of the teachers are no secret.
Changing your deen because some people you met is like saying ell I was a good girl but now I’m a stripper because I met these really cool girls. One of the problems is that status-conscious Muslim families are so big on the university that they end their kids there like sheep to the slaughter without any Islamic foundation. Then you have the fact that a lot of these narcissistic kids look at their parents as Third World idiots and think at school they are learning something superior to what has been given to them.
Regarding names, again, why would you not want to be known by a Muslim name? People are no named Umar because of what it literally means; but because of Umar Ibn Khttab (r.a.). African-American Muslims as a group change their names ( with some acceptations); but I think it is arrogance that elads white Muslims to not want to change their names.
Umar,
What do you think of Hizb it Tahrir, it’s a Islamic political movement. Do they exist in America
You are white
Honestly,
Your discusions always tend to revolve around, race, class and sports. None of these subjects strike me as being particularly Islamic. Yet, you attack any and everyone for their lax adherence to deen. This is an embarassing recurring trend which, I hope, has not escaped you as ironic. I’m with you when you are talking in defense of the Qur’an and Sunnah, but leave the politics and classist nonsense alone. There is no benefit in indulding in this sort of hollow debate. Your assaults always only thinkly veil a deep seated hatred of your fellow muslim brothers or sisters based on thier skin tone, political views and especially their perceived class status. Come off it akhi for the sake of Allah. You have better things to concern yourself with. Fear Allah!
Ahmed, I don’t see any of these topics as being particularly un-Islamic. Race is the defining issue of America and I am an America who does not have my head in my you know what so i talk about it. Of course most choose to ignore the issue of race and in the Muslim community many will say there is no racial issues in our community which is complete nonsense.
Class exists everywhere. Many of my readers come from Muslim countries and cultures that systematically brutalize the poor while issues of class are ignored. Even in America the bulk of the Muslim leadership has ignored the issues of the working-class and the poor and when someone comes along like me who does not have a Hindu mentality when it comes to class I am accused of being classsist. Now, that is
rubbish.
Regarding sports, what can I say, I like sports.
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The Whiteman is the devil! Umar finally came clean and exposed his Nation of Islam background. LOL…nah, just messin’ with you Umar!
Leila,
At best, a university is little more than an expensive four year trade school. The ultimate obective of the university system is indoctrination. It’s not about educating people–that is, producing better and more moral people. The proof in that is to look at the decadent behavior of the people when the weekend comes (which is PROMOTED by the university). Furthermore, the university is a hotbed of deviant ideologies, which are taught as the norm: feminism, fagophilia, “tolerance” (in a twisted so-called Politically Correct manner), ad nauseum. And of course, there are all sorts of speech codes on the university campuses, which make it illegal to actually speak out against these deviant ideologies (in the name of “tolerance”). If people can’t think critically and see how deviant the university system is, then that proves the university has fails to educate its student body.
With Allah is the success.
I feel like people have missed the actual meaning of White Privilege. WP is about the ability to choose. If a white Muslim, decides not to follow Islam and gets rid of all of those elements that outwardly identify one as a Muslim then they are back to being part of the hegemony and gaining full acceptance into society.
As a woman of color if I decide tomorrow to stop practicing Islam and get rid of all of those outward identifiers that mark me a Muslimah, guess what? I am still a part of a one down, marginalized group as a woman of color! It’s insulting to have white people tell me just how “hard” their lives are now that they’re Muslim, or how they don’t “really” have WP because x, y and z.
White people tend to deflect and cover up their WP by throwing out their other “disadvantages” whether that is they are married to a POC, they’re from a foreign country, don’t have an education, don’t make very much money or feel like the “foreign” Muslims they encounter don’t really accept them. These are just manifestations of white guilt that do nothing to further progress in society. I know you didn’t choose to be white in the same way that I didn’t choose to be a POC, but please for the sake of all that is good in this world, white people, please admit that you have WP.
At best, a University produces great research that increases the knowledge and well being of the world, besides providing education in the “trades” like medicine, law, etc. Unfortunately, the serious scholars are surrounded by throngs of young people away from home, disoriented and often acting very poorly, being preyed upon by all sorts of deviance. The ideas for living promoted there were absurd. Most people dumped them soon after graduating.
I know a person that got a better education living at home and going to the small classes offered at the University extension center in her town.
Salaam Aalikum,
Mrs S – As a white Muslim, I agree totally. White Privilege is all pervading and it’s not as simple as saying “Look I’m disadvantaged, what privilege to you have”. We are raised in a society that paints white as right and it takes more then changing your name and clothes to counteract the effects of this.
Umar, I would take what you were saying far more seriously if you didn’t start your piece with a big chunk of back biting. If you dislike these people so much, why let them take your reward? I also think it’s rather odd that you don’t call them such names on the Talk Islam blog itself.
Yes, true, Mrs S. Like I was saying back on my own site, nearly all the time, white muslims are being ID’d as white *even with* a kufi and beard. Being discriminated against because of what you believe is just *not the same* as being discriminated against because of the color of your skin. Umar’s gonna hate this one, but the discrimination white muslim men face from muslim-haters is closer to the discrimination white homosexuals face from people who hate homosexuals, not what whites dish out to blacks. Islamophobia is not identical to racism, it does not operate in exactly the same way, and it is confusing and counterproductive to conflate the two. Poor, uneducated, working class white men who become muslim STILL have White Privilege. They sure do.
Safiya, you do not know what backbiting is. People take public stands and then they are publicly debated and refuted. It is a site where the majority are of a deviant nature and I have said that there before and in particular there is a lot of pro-gay and anti-sunnah stuff there. Read it yourself. If I call Kevorkian a killer is that backbiting?
Salaam Alaikum,
Yes, I do know what back biting is and there is a massive difference between “have stances I disagree with” and “wont (sic) be happy until there’s a gay orgy in front of the kabbah”. I think that’s obvious.
Brother Umar,
You seriously believe that the majority of frontpagers at Talk Islam are “of a deviant nature” ? Will you be willing to say this to our face? I invite yu to post a list of names publicly at Talk Islam calling us deviants out. It may even be good for our collective aqueedah to hear your true thoughts.
I invited you to post at Talk Islam as a fellow brother and share yoru perspective. It would be hypocritical of me to expect you to not be honest and encourage you to post there when you disagree or have honest criticism. So, I urge you to use the access you have to Talk Islam’s frontpage and make your case.
Aziz,
I’m not denying there are some good people on Talkislam; but just look at the posts day in and day out. Salaman Rushdie, the man who made a living disrespecting Muslims, name is mentioned and he is treated as a hero and Ahmed Deedat, a man who committed his life to dawah, is made fun of. You can go on and on with such examples.
bingregory, Yea I basically I agree with what you just said that racism and Islamophobia are different and aboput privilege ( although my understanding may be a little bit different). But, why wouldn’t any real Muslim who has eeman in their heart and a belief in Quran and Sunnah not be upset by being equated with gays?
Salams Umar, I know you and I don’t see eye to eye on everything and so I want to thank you for responding to me directly in this thread and being willing to acknowledge a little common ground. I apologize for provoking you with the gay analogy.
“But wait. Aren’t white Muslims, the prized pets, the conversion stories everyone wants to hear, the ones who get far more marriage proposals and attention then their convert brethren of colour?”
White muslimah’s are not sought after for marriage , i dont know where you got this information from. Unless their goodlooking and have good islamic characteristic, i dont think anyone would want to marry them. unless they want a green card to be able to stay in this country legally.
I think this whole white privilege thing is nonsense. some white people are trying to put white supremacist idea’s in to people’s head. insha ‘Allah, this is not going to work. Umar fear Allah and admit this is not true
Northerm European white are seen to be far too pale and undesirable to most people. I DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION. Ghostly white, pig skin was was very common terms that used to be used in the environment i grew up in.
to become brown is very common in white people thats why the tan business is a multi-billion dollar industry. Ghostly white is inherently ugly to most people.
As a White Male Muslim, I have yet to see these privileges. …
What it sounds like to me is that everyone is concerned not with the fact that white Muslims seem to get benefits, but that its white people that “give” those benefits. It seems to me everyone is complaining that white people give other white people more ‘good’ [in the sense of mannerism, actual things, and other "pluses" one considers to be part of being white.] then they do to people who aren’t white.
All this talk about white privilege. I’d like some Muslim privilege as a white convert. Try living in the Middle East and getting turned away from the mosque because of the colour of your skin! So I guess white converts are still judged as white even by other muslims.
i dont believe anyone will turn you away from a masjid because of the colour of your skin. the talk of white privilege was raised by white muslims, if you read the blog carnival you will find non-white muslims stayed away from the discussion.
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Yusuf Smith said:
Ironic that no contributions seem to have come from non-white writers; I’m not sure if that was the intention.
Jamal,
That was not the intention; the invite clearly states it is open to ALL Muslims. Considering whites’ extreme dislike to discuss issues of racism and tendency to attack poc who try to initiate dialogue, I can I understand why it has played out like this, but I do hope more poc chime in, inshallah.
I think this type of discussion is useless and un-islamic, it leads to fitnah and racism. As muslims we believe in One Ummah, whether you be White, asian or african we are all brothers and sisters in Islam. We can’t over genaraliza colourism and falsely conclude white is inherently attractive. Some dark skin people might want to have a lighter shade of black but that doesn’t mean they find extremely pale skin attractive. The tanning industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, to a lot of people brown is very attractive skin complexion. I believe we should close the discussion because it is very un-islamic and can cause fitnah.
I am not saying very pale skin even with european standard to be unattractive. wastagfirullah. No! every human being is beautiful in the eyes of Allah. (metaphorically speaking). As muslims we should guard our tongue from saying things which is completely haram.
May Allah guard our tongue from committing munkar(evil). Ameeeeeeeen
When I was asked not to go into the mosque by the security man it was so I didn’t disturb the muslims who were praying. The security man looked at me and saw a white male. He didn’t see a muslim. To most people in the world muslim equals POC and this includes muslims themselves. In my home town in the UK there are mosques for all ethnic groups but it seems not one for muslims. I’ve never visited the US so maybe it’s different there. But in muslim and non-muslim lands this side of the Atlantic Ocean we are judged by our race by muslims and non-muslims. I wish it was one Ummah but my experience leads me to believe there are lots of ummahs. Brothers and sisters who are able to rise above this are few in number but it is always a pleasure to meet them.
I live in the Empty Quarter in Arabia in a very small town and do not have trouble entering mosques as I am known. But even here people gravitate towards their own kind. By that I mean Algerians have Algerian friends, Egyptians mix with Egytian etc etc. I am invited to sit in the desert and drink coffee but when I look at the gathering it has only brothers from Palestine or Syria or Jordan. As an outsider I am invited and made to feel welcome but only as a guest.
Back in the UK I was a guest in each mosque I frequented. The mosque would be run by one ethnic group. Maybe that’s my white privilege as far as Islam goes – because I don’t belong to one of the dominant groups I can slip in and out but only as a guest.
Bro, That is how the cards are dealt. Egyptians hang with Egyptians and Lebanese hang with Lebanese and Ethiopians hang with Ethiopians. That is how it works, because people feel they can relate to people from their region. Sure we are all Muslims, but for instance I’m a white Muslim in America, I have virtually nothing in common with a Muslim from Indonesia outside of our creed. I couldn’t relate to this person in any way, If we talked about Islam, it would lead to mentioning the negative stuff about our world, and nobody wants to talk about that. Nobody on a constant basis wants to talk about Jews, misandry, Wahhabis, the dhajjal, or the Greek philosophers or what ever all the time.
Most of the peoples time is not spent on talking about the creed or the latest lessons from I live in a small community of about 200 Muslims, of those maby 20 come to the lessons and other non-obligatory activities. And most of them are children/teens/tweens…people spent their time on other stuff, and the majority of that stuff is influenced by the people from their country of origin, and the trends of that region.
So I ask what does a white guy have to offer to them?
Also note that most white Muslims are converts and tend to be more, how should I say.. “enthusiastic?” about the deen? Most of us were searching for what seems like forever, and we finally found the Creed of Allah, it is amazing, we want everyone anywhere to hear it and that’s all we want to talk about. But when you deal with the arabs or the africans or who ever, they likely grew up with Islam, and they were not ever in a state of darkness, so they are not as [most, not all] excited about talking about Islam and relating it to others. Its part of their life. They are used to it, and they have heard it all. … now, do not misunderstand me, I’m not saying born Muslims are less serious or loving of their deen. They just don’t make it as much of a mission to spread it and talk about it as converts do.
Also, give it time. Because someone is called Muslim, doesn’t automatically mean no one will be suspicious of that person if he is new to the area. The musalah I go to every Friday, I’m pretty much the only active white guy, everyone else is black-American, ethiopian or lebanese. But I would say I am considered “one of the guys” anyways. I’m not treated as a guest or outsider. And I participate in the official or administrative stuff that goes on when ever I can. If you want to part part of a community you have to make yourself part of it. In the very least show that you want to learn. Ive been with my community for going on 4 years, and I would say just in the last year have I really related to the Imam and the Brothers on a personal “hang out” type of level. I’m not just “that guy that takes the lessons”
In my second paragraph, it should read:
“Most of the peoples time is not spent on talking about the creed or the latest lessons from which ever sheikh. I live in a small community of about 200 Muslims,… “
Brother, I’ve been muslim going on 20 years now and been heavily involved in my local muslim community. You know the sort of thing, setting up muslim schools etc etc. As I said it is a pleasure to meet muslims who try hard to treat you as a muslim first and white person second. I do meet a few but not nearly enough.
In my home region in the UK there are a few of us working on a support network for muslim converts. When we put the list of likely candidates it was amazing how many converts there were. Unfortunately you never saw them at the mosque. It is an issue we are dealing with and trying to come to terms with.
My whiteness has been highlighted living in the Middle East where society is stratified according to ethnicity. I am a white man first and a muslim second.
Salamu Aleikum,
quick question, do you think that its wrong not to change ur name after one converts? names either are a reflection of ur culture, ethnic group, and religion. Personally i don’t see anything wrong with a white or african american keeping their name, since it symbolizes their culture in a way. north african arabs hold some different names then lets say gulf arabs, with somali and ethiopian have cultural names that have nothing to do with the deen, and are distinct to the region. They don’t feel obliged to change their name and make it in accordance with islam, therefore why must white or african americans, have to compromise on their culture?
jazakallah khayr
I do mourn the fact that the white kufr are agianst islam but maybe inshallah if white muslims grow in numbers and show a good example of what an american white muslim is it will achully make islam attractive as an indigenious american religion.
I stumbled upon this old post last week and was disturbed by what I read. This lingered so I decided to come back and comment.
In general, I’m not comfortable with the negative stereotyping used in this blog post, as I don’t think this should be done with any group of people, but there was one comment, in particular, that bothered me.
You wrote:
“They reek of arrogance ion many ways that they do not see. African-American as a rule never had a problem with Islamic orthodoxy, using Arabic phrases and names, and changing there names; but all of these things many white converts I think are too arrogant to do. They say ” I’m not some ni%#$ from East St. Louis who is going to run around calling myself Mustafa I am Blake!” and while the whole ummah says Allah many white converts see themselves as too good for that.”
I know many white converts, myself included, who have chosen to keep their birth names and who used English vocabulary in reference to their religion and it never once occured to me that this is arrogant. Jeffrey Lang provides a good explanation of why he chooses to use English terms in reference to his religion in one of his books and I have heard a number of other converts (white and not) provide good justifications for doing the same or for keeping their birth names.
If you disagree with these choices, then fair enough, criticize the practices themselves with sound reasoning, but let’s stay away from passing judgment on what is in other people’s hearts and leave this to Allah. A paraphrase of something Yasir Qadhi is reported to have said: ‘When we judge other people’s intentions, it is a sign of our own insincerity.’